8mm Forum: Polyester & Vinegar Syndrome.?

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Topic: Polyester & Vinegar Syndrome.?

Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted June 22, 2018 05:12 AM

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Here's an interesting situation for your thoughts and comments.

About a month ago I bought a 3-reel MGM black & white feature and on opening the package there was a smell of the notorious vinegar syndrome. The cardboard box had quite a strong smell, but the three plastic Tuscan spools only had a slight trace of the smell.

The film was on Eastman 4b with a date code of 1966. Upon holding up to the light I could see my hand through the film. This would indicate that the film was on polyester stock. But it seems well known that this stock does not catch V.S.

After four weeks of the box being daily in the sun, and the three spools sitting on my settee, the smell has disappeared.

I read that cardboard boxes can absorb the smell. Perhaps the film in its box had been kept alongside a film which did have V.S. This might explain the circumstances.

What are your views on my thoughts?

--------------------
Maurice

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1031
From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013

posted June 22, 2018 06:50 AM

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According to information here; 4B was not a filmstock
http://www.paulivester.com/films/filmstock/guide.htm
http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f1/t002835.html

Was Polyester in use in 1966?; I have a feature which is also marked Eastman 4B and dated 1982, and this is acetate and faded.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted June 22, 2018 09:36 AM

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I understand that the 4b is, as you say, not a film stock per se, but possibly some kind of slitting code such as used by Agfa.

Irrespective of the date code, which perhaps has been printed through when the print was prepared for TV use, on the evidence provided (see through) it seems to mean that it is polyester.

The main point I made is can polyester be affected by V.S.?

--------------------
Maurice

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004

posted June 22, 2018 06:04 PM

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Hello Maurice

It must be just a smell left over from the reels or boxes previously being used to store an acetate VS print - any polyester stock cannot have VS simply because it does not have any of the VS chemical components of acetate in its make up.

Are you 100% sure it is not acetate though? - most poly prints were made from the late 80's onwards - the 'tear test' is better to try on the leader or tail to determine the film base.

If you fancy a longer read about film bases please see here:

https://www.nfsa.gov.au/preservation/guide/handbook/base-polymers

Kevin

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Master Film Handler

Posts: 280
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017

posted June 22, 2018 07:48 PM

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The ultimate test to see if it is really poly,is to try cement splicing on it. Poly film won't cement-splice,never. [Wink]

[Wink]

--------------------
Just a lone collector from a faraway land...

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted June 23, 2018 03:34 AM

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I am basing my thoughts on the "hand" test.
When held sideways to the light the film is quite translucent and I can see my hand through it.
This seems to be a definitive polyester test.

--------------------
Maurice

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Mark Todd
Film God

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From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

posted June 23, 2018 04:08 AM

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Hi Maurice there is some B+W acetate stock that is very see through if you will, its caught me ( or sellers to me) out many times as I only buy poly prints with my ocd etc.

Can you get to a piece at the end of the reel etc of actual film and try the tear test kevin mentions.

Sometimes takes a good tight grip effort to tear across but acetate will tear, poly will not, its the 100% way to tell.

1966 stock is very unlikely to be poly, there are B+W prints about from the 70`s, but mainly as Kevin says 80`s.

Best Mark.

PS you can also quite often tell poly look but actually acetate prints out with the bit of acetate warp or curl etc.

Does it have any ?

You`d be surprised at how many people will tell you they know everything about film but don`t know how to tell if poly or acetate stock.You do get a knack for it.

I`ve actually once had a new sealed super 8 poly print did have some sort of degradation type sticky curly issue, not VS but something odd.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

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From: Essex, UK
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posted June 23, 2018 05:36 AM

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I guess if the smell has now disappeared, it must have been the box or the reels.

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Robert Crewdson
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013

posted June 23, 2018 06:23 AM

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I bought two rolls of Polyester white leader from Grahame Newnham; I wanted acetate, but he was out of stock at that time. Strange thing is, I can tear this easily. it's not mislabelled, as it's completely different from the acetate rolls I had from him before. Never tried the test on a piece of clear film.

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 978
From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004

posted June 23, 2018 07:15 AM

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If you can tear it by hand that is a very odd type of poly leader film that Grahame is selling Robert.

Regarding the 'hand showing through' theory I once nearly listed a 16mm print of County Hospital for sale to Mark as poly because it looked almost transparent side - on but it then tore with little force when I checked the tail clear film section so was definitely acetate.

A non-destructive method to tell Polyester (Estar, etc.) from Acetate is defined in detail in Paul Ivester's excellent Film Stocks webpages:

http://www.paulivester.com/films/filmstock/guide.htm

Scroll down nearly to the bottom of the page and all will be revealed.

Kevin

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Robert Crewdson
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From: UK
Registered: Jun 2013

posted June 23, 2018 08:24 AM

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Hi Kevin; I tried again before I posted, and tore a 4 inch piece into 4 pieces. The old Acetate leader was similar to film, with what looks like a base side and an emulsion side, but the polyester leader is the same both sides, a sot of eggshell finish. i only wanted acetate to go with the acetate film as I was using cement splices, but now I'm only using tape regardless of film base.

Would like to see the hand behind the polyester film effect if anyone can post a picture. I have one or two clear films, but
these are acetate.

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Kevin Clark
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: Bapchild, Kent, UK
Registered: May 2004

posted June 23, 2018 09:39 AM

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Hello Robert

Could you please try a splice or two on the leader from Grahame using your cement splicer - if the leader can be cement spliced it must be acetate base with no emulsion - just guessing the emulsion bit as that would explain two smooth shiny sides rather than one dull emulsion side.

This reminds me of some super 8 leaders that did the rounds in the 70's / 80's - white, red and green were available I think made by Arrow - neither poly or acetate but a different plastic polymer altogether - if you get a film with the leader so badly sideways curled whilst the rest of the film is OK then it is usually this Arrow stuff.

I wonder if Grahame's supplier was able to slit and perforate a similar 'brand x' plastic - if it tape splices and feeds OK I guess there is no problem it is still doing the job of protecting the main film during threading and exit.

Kevin

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Robert Crewdson
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posted June 23, 2018 10:31 AM

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I'll try that Kevin and report back, probably tomorrow.

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Daniel D. Teoli Jr.
Film Handler

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From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Aug 2017

posted June 23, 2018 08:16 PM

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So was poly film always tape spliced? I would think that would be unprofessional for feature films.

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David Ollerearnshaw
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From: Penistone Sheffield UK
Registered: Oct 2012

posted June 23, 2018 09:26 PM

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If you were very rich you could splice polyester using an ultrasonic splicer. One was reviewed in Super 8 Film Maker (the US magazine). Price I think $600. I used tape.

--------------------
I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Robert Crewdson
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From: UK
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posted June 24, 2018 04:10 AM

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I tried using cement on this leader and it made no impression at all, so not acetate. As you can see from the photo, the bag is clearly marked Poly. It tears as easily as acetate, and you can see from the 2nd photo that it was torn and not cut.

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Greg Perry
Film Handler

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From: midwest
Registered: Dec 2015

posted June 24, 2018 07:42 AM

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Robert,
I wonder if your leader might be the 16mm Fiesta plastic leader. This often came in bright colors (I think I had blue and green), not sure about white.

It is junk which warps and twists horribly in very little time. I threw mine out as I had to begin replacing it with the good Mylar stuff which Larry sells. It was sold on ebay as poly, but of course it is not truly polyester (Estar) or Mylar.

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Robert Crewdson
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From: UK
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posted June 24, 2018 08:42 AM

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This is quite thick; I have had coloured leader that sometimes is so thin it has a job with the auto threading. I'm OK with this leader;all my features are acetate. I've read several times that poly is so tough that it would break the teeth on the sprocket wheels before the film would break, so not looking for something that tough.

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Greg Perry
Film Handler

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From: midwest
Registered: Dec 2015

posted June 24, 2018 09:18 AM

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So long as it works for your needs! And your leader does look just fine. I think the Fiesta stuff is very shiny. I have also ran into the very thin and limp leader you mention. I generally put new leader on both head and tail on the 16mm films I get. Seems more often than not existing leader is in bad shape or non-existent.

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Robert Crewdson
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posted June 24, 2018 02:37 PM

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I do that as well Greg, to protect the original leader.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

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From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted June 24, 2018 04:14 PM

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very slightly off subject, but i recently bought a 50ft roll of super 8 white polyester leader. It is poly and i cant tear it but it will not thread through any our our Elmo 1200HD.s, i then went to the CIR splicer and when i laid it across the base i realised if i fix two or three of the sprocket holes over the points the others dont line up. The perforations are wrong. No choice but to bin it and avoid buying any-more on ebay. The seller had excellent feedback and had, (allegedly), sold a lot of these.

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