8mm Forum: OK, let's get this straight ...

This is topic OK, let's get this straight ... in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.

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Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 19, 2017, 11:50 AM:

I have heard a number of film sellers, ranging from professional sellers to ebay sellers, that, when asked about color quality, will respond with, "good color, as it is on Poly stock".

The question being ...

Just because something is on polyester stock, that it will be low fade or at the least, retain it's good color?

You're thoughts, ladies and gentleman.

Posted by Jason Patnode (Member # 5973) on September 19, 2017, 12:51 PM:

I'm still very new to collecting so still trying to learn the ropes. What are the different film stocks commonly found?

Posted by Alexander Vandeputte (Member # 1803) on September 19, 2017, 12:51 PM:

The filmbase has nothing to do with the emulsion that is attached to it. So a polyester /estar film base does not mean the film stock is low fade. You need to identify the emulsion itself to be able to tell wether it's low fade or not:
And that is very easy: Eastman and Kodak SP and pre 1982 Fuji and Agfa are all prone to fading, each with their own fading characteristics. Kodak LPP and post 1982 Fuji and Agfa are low fade.
Polyester /Estar film base has been around for a long time, but gained prominence towards the later years of film production, so a polyester / estar based film is more likely to be low fade but it's not a guarantee.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 19, 2017, 03:01 PM:

Spot on Alexander and many of the latest brand new prints can be on Acetate.

The base means nothing as a guarantee of a films fading characteristics.

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on September 19, 2017, 04:11 PM:

I have a 16mm feature 70s film on Eastman and you would swear its technicolour and owned it for 15 years
you cant beat black and white

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on September 19, 2017, 04:18 PM:

@Jason, poly is elastic vs acetace which is breakable.

@Osi those two stocks have nothing to do with fading. They can both be fading too depending on the lab process.

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on September 19, 2017, 04:23 PM:

what about Fuji does that fade

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on September 19, 2017, 04:28 PM:

I think some Fuji fades, but not as much or in the same way as others more brownish or purple, I believe for the older stock. I have 2 prints of Capricorn One Promo one copy on Agfa one on Fuji and I can't tell much difference.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 19, 2017, 04:50 PM:

As Alexander quite correctly pointed out earlier, Fuji stock follows the same path as the rest, post 82 is considered low fade, anything earlier will fade.

Pre 82 Fuji film uniquely fades towards purple hues.

Alexander's earliest reply, as was said at the time, was both spot on in terms of accuracy and inclusiveness.

Posted by Robert Tucker (Member # 386) on September 19, 2017, 05:22 PM:

LPP also fades, it all depends on the lab work that was done and the final washing process.

Also LPP prints (acetate) are prone to VS (Vinegar Syndrome).

AGFA tends to lean towards the blue spectrum. So having an LPP print would be second best to Technicolor print.

All other film stock pre-1983 will fade within time including Kodak 3M (35mm & 16mm)

You will also come across the dreaded Fuji film rot.

[ September 20, 2017, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Robert Tucker ]

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on September 20, 2017, 02:45 AM:

I though 3M was Ferrania, the reversal stock I used in the 70's for still and cine was.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 20, 2017, 05:56 AM:

It was! [Big Grin]

http://alessandropanelli.com/blog/2014/12/24/ferrania-history

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 20, 2017, 11:39 AM:

Fuji can certainly fade, but from what i have seen, 1979 fuji on up has tended to hlod it's color excellently. All my 1979 on fuji still looks brand new ... as to whether it will eventually fade, i don't know. Fingers crossed on that ...

... and thank you to those who verified my suspicions on this topic. I had thought as much ...

So, film sellers, whether professional or ebay ...

You're on notice, "poly" doesn't automatically mean a low fade film print. [Smile]

Posted by Daniel D. Teoli Jr. (Member # 6043) on September 20, 2017, 02:31 PM:

Poly stock is newish...isn't it? If newish, the emulsion is not that old to fade.

I have some 1941 Kodachrome 8mm that look great. I think Ihave one from '39 as well. My 1970's color is all red.

I vote emulsion I the cause, unless the base somehow contributes chemically to the decline.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on September 20, 2017, 04:30 PM:

Marketing Films used estar stock in the later part of the 70s and some are faded.

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on September 22, 2017, 02:20 PM:

just screened a mint print condition of a late 1980s film lpp and guess what it has faded colour looks like Eastman so no one is safe long live black and white

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on September 22, 2017, 04:03 PM:

So what's the title of the film? Just curious as I hope it's not in my collection!

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 22, 2017, 05:50 PM:

And also David,..what is the gauge and who released it? [Wink]

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on September 23, 2017, 09:03 AM:

That doesn't sound right to me. I too am interested in the case of a late 80's LPP print being as faded as that. Is it definitely LPP?

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 23, 2017, 10:38 AM:

Any I have from the 80's onwards on LPP , Agfa or Fuji stock are still as good as when they were released by Derann and co regarding their colour.

These are all official Super 8mm releases however, so I cannot vouch for any prints outside of these parameters.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 23, 2017, 11:24 AM:

David ...

I'm curious too. Are you absolutely sure that it's L.P.P. or is that an assumption, based upon it being in the late 80's and L.p.P. stock being around as, some comapnies (sad but true) were still using Kodak SP as long as it was available. There are optical sound super 8 features which were apparantly still printed on Kodak SP film stock as late as 1987.

Posted by David Guest (Member # 2791) on September 23, 2017, 04:59 PM:

I cant check the film now as I sold and posted it I will contact the man in a day or so and see what he has to say

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 23, 2017, 05:07 PM:

But what was the film, gauge, distributor and evidence to suggest it was LPP post 82 stock, David?

Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on September 24, 2017, 03:46 AM:

On the other hand a print on LPP from faded original material will still look faded, especially the master is a print.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 24, 2017, 03:48 AM:

Good point Brian and quite possibly, one of only a couple of possibilities I can think of to explain this highly unusual example of David's here.

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on September 25, 2017, 04:34 PM:

I can now clarify and solve the mystery of David's faded late 1980s 'LPP' print.

My parcel arrived today and the film in question is The Forth Protocol from 1987 - only checked on the rewinds so far but spools 1 & 3 are both faded and spool 2 is perfect Agfa colour.

With my trusty backlight and lupe in hand I have just about been able to see the tiniest edge markings ever on spool 1 and 3 which state clearly it is on Fuji safety film and not LPP.

'Scope 16mm feature prints are usually struck in the year the film is originally released so all this means is the faded spools were printed on possibly old stock Fuji hence the fade to purple whilst the perfect spool is on the then current and fade free 1987 Agfa stock.

No LPP to be seen - truly I have owned and still own shelves full of LPP prints on all guages and have never seen any fade - the only poor LPP prints I have seen started out that way ie: bad colour grading, processing errors or poor master material.

I am not worried or upset about this feature - at £35 it was a gamble worth taking, and the other £35 one I bought from David - Firewalker - is a near mint poly feature just a tad on the dark side but nothing my EX4000p wont brighten up with the 500w xenon jacked up a bit.

Kevin

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 25, 2017, 04:56 PM:

Maybe we are all still safe after all then Kevin,..phew.

Thanks for the explanation there Kevin and if nothing else, it teaches us all never to confuse LPP with Fuji stock or any other. [Smile]

Nice to see the Agfa reel does what it says on the tin, just the same as those we have and love on Super 8mm from this era.

Maybe the lupe and backlight should be made more readily available Kevin? [Wink]

[ September 25, 2017, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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