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Author Topic: Cure for VS
Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

- posted October 01, 2017 08:27 AM      Profile for Terry Sills     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Now I'm not a scientist or an engineer (but Science was always my favourite subject at school) - but I am an experimenter.
I want to relate my experience of tackling VS because it has worked for me and who knows there may be a scientific explanation, who knows.
I had a 1600ft reel of black & white film which was suffering from VS and because I didn't want to lose it I decided to experiment on a treatment.
I have noticed that on some old reels of film not suffering from the syndrome, particularly ones stored in tins, that they have a smell of mothballs. So this started me thinking that perhaps an ingredient of them was protecting the film.
Now in the U.K. I'm told It is not possible to buy mothballs any more because of the idiot terrorists that have used them to make explosives! So I know that the main ingredient of mothballs is Camphor and consequently bought some Camphor oil in a small bottle. Because the oil is a fairly thick consistency I decided to dilute it with WD40 ( Richard Patchett will be horrified) and gave the film a liberal coating on both sides using a microporous cloth. After the first application I waited a few days but the VS was still discernible although masked somewhat by the smell of Camphor.
I repeated the procedure two or three times, waiting a week between each application and now the reel is free from the smell of VS and also of the smell of Camphor.
No damage has been caused to the emulsion and the film is perfectly projectionable. There is still a little warping, but that was there before my treatment.
Now I don't claim that this treatment reverses VS but it does appear to have contained it or hopefully may even have halted its progress, perhaps by some chemical reaction, who knows! But it worked for me.
I would love to hear the thoughts of the forum.

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Bill Phelps
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1482
From: USA
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted October 01, 2017 09:47 AM      Profile for Bill Phelps     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It sounds good to me....what have you got to lose? I have a couple vs prints and I may just give it a try myself!

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

- posted October 01, 2017 10:39 AM      Profile for Terry Sills     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Very true Bill, what have you got to lose. Only tha chance that it may work for you too.
Some of the greatest breakthroughs in Science and Medicine have been made by accident so maybe I will qualify for a Nobel prize in Cinematics [Big Grin]

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Robert Tucker
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 688
From: Essex, UK
Registered: May 2005

- posted October 01, 2017 11:40 AM      Profile for Robert Tucker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Unfortunately there is no cure for VS i'm afraid.

Best thing to do is air your prints, and eventually the smell will go. But this will not cure the breakdown of acids or reduce the chemical reaction to humidity or moisture in the air.

If you are very lucky it may prolong your print that has VS for a few more years before it needs to be binned.

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

- posted October 01, 2017 12:23 PM      Profile for Terry Sills     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What you mean Robert is that no cure has been found to date. That is not the same as saying that there is no cure. Any chemical reaction can be stopped with the right treatment.
No progress will be made by throwing your hands up in despair and just accepting the inevitable. Any attempt, however futile, is a step in the right direction to tackling the problem.
I am not claiming that this is the panacea to VS but it does give hope and seems to have worked so far. Obviously film that has deteriorated too far will be beyond
treatment, but in the early stages there has to be hope of salvage.
Perhaps Camphor mixed with some other components may be even more effective. Anything is worth a try to save precious film from being dumped don't you think?

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David Guest
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1704
From: Lancashire, UK
Registered: Oct 2011

- posted October 01, 2017 01:11 PM      Profile for David Guest     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
as mary poppins would say just a spoonful of sugar
I had a print that stunk of vs I sprayed it with furniture polish and the smell went and not come back as yet that was 12 months ago

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

- posted October 01, 2017 04:55 PM      Profile for Terry Sills     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well David perhaps I should mix the camphor oil with Mr. Sheen [Smile]

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Dominique De Bast
Film God

Posts: 4486
From: Brussels, Belgium
Registered: Jun 2013

- posted October 01, 2017 05:33 PM      Profile for Dominique De Bast   Email Dominique De Bast   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I had to check was a mothball is as I never came across that word before. It is what we call in French naphtaline and as far as I know, it is currently available here. Do you think that just putting a motball in a can and then wait during some days could work or would that be too easy ? As already said, nothing to loose trying. I will look for "naphtaline" this week unless you tell me that Camphor oil is definitly needed [Smile]

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Dominique

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Michael Lattavo
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 160
From: Canton, OH, USA
Registered: May 2014

- posted October 01, 2017 05:43 PM      Profile for Michael Lattavo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The only way to check for vs is with A-D test strip - masking the smell doesn't indicate deterioration has been halted or slowed. I too would love a cure and hope one is found one day!

[ October 02, 2017, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Michael Lattavo ]

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Robert Tucker
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 688
From: Essex, UK
Registered: May 2005

- posted October 01, 2017 06:19 PM      Profile for Robert Tucker     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A lot of film treated with 3M scratch treatment solution especially US prints. Will fall fowl to this unstoppable disease.

As Michael so rightly pointed out, you can hide the smell. But you cannot halt the process of decomposing. No matter what you put on your films.

May go well with a portion of Fish & Chips mind you! [Big Grin]

[ October 02, 2017, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Robert Tucker ]

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

- posted October 02, 2017 02:21 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
1) Camphor was a prime ingredient in the product for film preservation known as a "Humidifying" solution.
2) Mothballs still appear to be available.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rentokil-Moth-Balls-Clear-Pack/dp/B01HZ7LLYE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1506928716&sr=8-1&keywords=rentokil+moth+balls

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Maurice

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

- posted October 02, 2017 03:16 AM      Profile for Terry Sills     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes Maurice you are right. They are still available. I was simply going by what I was told by a Hardware store. The ingredient Napthalene is apparently inflammable if subjected to a naked flame which is why I think there was some doubt. I have purchased some now and intend to try them as an ingredient with others in an attempt to get a more effective treatment.
I hope this has given other members inspiration to find a permanent cure. It must be possible. After all we are only talking about a chemical reaction that degrades the film base. It must be preventable or hopefully even cured.
Necessity is the mother of invention.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

- posted October 02, 2017 03:25 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Without wanting to cast aspersions on your optimism Terry,
I wouldn't bank on an actual solution to the entire issue of Vinegar Syndrome as plenty of corporate money has, in the past been placed on pursuing this battle, but so far at least, as Robert has said, it has all been to no avail so far as an actual cure is concerned.

For certain the process can be slowed down slightly, but a cure,..
well we will see.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

- posted October 02, 2017 08:10 AM      Profile for Terry Sills     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew
Although the thread is titled 'Cure for VS' I do not profess to claim a cure, it is just my attempt at tackling the syndrome and I think any attempt on affected film is worth a try because it is on the way to a slow death anyway, so nothing to lose. My first attempt seems to be something of a success but only time will tell.
Other than the BFI or other equivalent organisations, I have reservations about any big business ventures investing in any research into VS because of the advent of other film formats which have made cine film virtually redundant.
It may be that all I have done is seal the film against any further damage, but if that is the case it's a start.
Hope springs eternal. [Smile]

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Colin Fish
Film Handler

Posts: 68
From: Eastbourne, UK
Registered: Nov 2016

- posted October 02, 2017 12:47 PM      Profile for Colin Fish   Email Colin Fish   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, that's cheered me up. I've just binned a scope print with great colour and no warping with vinegar and now there might be a cure!

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Mathew James
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 740
From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014

- posted October 02, 2017 01:00 PM      Profile for Mathew James   Email Mathew James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Terry,
I think any attempt to stop this dreadful stench is a GREAT move!!!

I just want to point out a couple things. First of all, Camphor is one of my FAVOURITE smells of all time, and i can tell you MOthBalls are NOT made of camphor, in Canada at least, else i would die from that aweful smell of mothballs. No, moth balls are made rather of naphtalene, which is a nasty carcinogen.
If you are using camphor oil, and is working, go for it i say! Maybe even try vicks vapo rub and get both the camphor and lube done at the same time- he he- i jest...
I think some have also tried camphor as a moth repellent, but that is not the main ingredient in mothballs as far as i know.
I hope so much that camphor oil works because i love that smell!! Cheers.

--------------------
--
Cheers,
Matt 📽

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

- posted October 02, 2017 01:57 PM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I can tell you that mothballs are NOT made from camphor
In the case of the mothball link I gave to the product of UK Rentokill, they comprise Magnesium Stearate/Camphor/Transfluthrin (ISO).

--------------------
Maurice

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Mathew James
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 740
From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014

- posted October 02, 2017 03:31 PM      Profile for Mathew James   Email Mathew James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some mothballs also use paradichlorobenzene now in many places. The ingredients you list Maurice i believe come from yet another competing brand from rentokil, but the camphor is less than 1% in those according to their msds sheet on it...so I don't think this would be the overwhelming contributing ingredient or odour in any of the mothballs.
All of them smell nasty is all i know [Smile] Regardless, i hope the camphor oil works gents!

--------------------
--
Cheers,
Matt 📽

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Daniel D. Teoli Jr.
Film Handler

Posts: 55
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Aug 2017

- posted October 02, 2017 05:25 PM      Profile for Daniel D. Teoli Jr.   Email Daniel D. Teoli Jr.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So far airing has helped a lot with my VS issues. I hope to experiment with a couple of commercial rejuvenates soon.

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

- posted October 03, 2017 01:55 AM      Profile for Terry Sills     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's the attitude I was hoping to inspire Daniel. Do let us know how you get on with. Your treatments.

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

- posted October 03, 2017 07:50 AM      Profile for Terry Sills     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's the attitude I was hoping to inspire Daniel. Do let us know how you get on with. Your treatments.

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Joe Caruso
Film God

Posts: 4105
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted October 04, 2017 06:31 AM      Profile for Joe Caruso     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Not long ago, I also experimented with baking soda - This cured the one 8mm film I had with bad odor - Placing a tiny (half-teaspoon) on the holes were the reel is and in the four corners of the box - Also the top part of the box - After a week or two of exposure (always keeping the air control comfortable), the odor has all but dissipated and the box is fine too - Now, cardboard with age will release oxides, thus causing deterioation and yet baking soda seems a viable component to help - Plastic and metal cans/reels simply have to be cleaned and maintained accordingly, and alternately changed when needed - The mothball/camphor/WD-40 idea has possibilities - Like many collectibles, age is inevitable and we can only do our best - We all have to be scientists, so to speak - Cheers - Shorty

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1423
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012

- posted October 04, 2017 07:41 AM      Profile for Terry Sills     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know why my recent posts have even duplicated. I haven't done anything different. Doug - Brad why is that?

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