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Author Topic: Recording in STEREO ?
Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted August 10, 2005 10:23 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just aqquired, about two months ago, a EUMIG S926GL stereo projector, in truly excellent condition, without a scratch on it and runs smoother and much quieter than any projector I have ever owned, (yeah, I know the "GS1200 cult" will let me know thier projector is much quieter, snicker snicker), and the stereo is truly breath-taking, with an amazingly low amount of noise. I've never ran into a projector with a "control board" on it for recording and such ...

... yet I'm a little wary about adding stereo soundtracks to some of my films, as I don't want to screw up perfectly good movies with lame-brained attempts at stereo. I know enough to use a restored DVD soundtracks if I want to, (and hope that the super 8 film isn't missing any frames to screw things up), but I could use any good advice anyone could offer.

By the way, the guy who sold me this projector didn't have the left and right stereo cords to do the recording with, and these are those old fashioned larger cords. Since the projector didn't come with the original owners manuel, I have no serial number to go with. HELP!!!

By the way, I really hope that I'm not being a nusciance with all these posts, I'm just so overjoyed to have lots of new film freinds to "hang out" with over the ole internet!!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Dan Lail
Film God

Posts: 2110
From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 10, 2005 10:54 PM      Profile for Dan Lail   Author's Homepage   Email Dan Lail   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi, what are the old fashioned larger cords. Are you talking about the rca phono type like on a vcr or tv or Stereo receiver? RCAs are can be found easily.

You would have to set your projector screen with a TV beside it for monitoring. Try to get the projected picture about the same size as the TV. I would practice on a film that is a least favorite just in case. Do several dry runs(not recording) till you get it synchronized. Getting the starting points is crucial. Does your projector have avariable speed control?

I'm sure other members could give a lot better advice, but this should get you oriented a bit.

Don't worry about posting a lot, no one can beat Jan! [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 11, 2005 02:20 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I wonder if that Eumig uses Din leads for hifi interconnects.

Assuming there is a variable speed control and the projector does keep a constant running speed then re-recording becomes easy with practice. Two things to bear in mind though...

1) Ensure the Super 8 print matches the source from which it is to be re-recorded.
2) Check the sound stripe on the print is good prior to commencing which means recording down the leader of each reel first.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Jean-Marc Toussaint
Film God

Posts: 2392
From: France
Registered: Oct 2004


 - posted August 11, 2005 02:35 AM      Profile for Jean-Marc Toussaint   Author's Homepage   Email Jean-Marc Toussaint   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi, be extra careful and never forget to inspect and clean the film path on the 926. When the coaxial system goes wrong — I'm not saying it will happen but it could happen — it's really harsh on films.

You're right, Eumigs can be very quiet.

As far as redubbing is concerned, here's "my" method

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The Grindcave Cinema Website

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 11, 2005 10:47 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Osi,
I have been using the Eumig 926GL stereo for many years now to re-record a lot of feature films, mainly musicals. As you have already observed, the stereo sound quality that you can get from the 926 is really stunning. Just play it back through an external stereo amp and high quality speakers and it will blow you away. These Eumigs have ZERO WOW, something which cannot always be said of Elmo projectors. The nice thing about the 926 (and all the Eumig 900 series)is that speed control knob, which is really high precision so that you can make minute adjustments to the speed of the projector during re-recording. Don't be afraid to re-record, it just takes patience and practice, but the pay off is huge in terms of sound quality and the 'presence' of the projected film. My best re-recording so far is 'Grease' and the resulting stereo sound can only be described as awesome. Feature films are much easier to do than digests, because you can often do a whole 400ft reel in one shot, instead of stopping and starting the projector, which you have to do with the edited digests.
Jean-Marc is right about his comments on the 926 co-axial reel arrangement, it can give film handling problems if your not careful. Make sure you keep the entire film path spotlessly clean and polish the input film guide channels and rollers with furniture polish before every show. Do NOT use this projector to re-wind your films, the reversed re-wind path is hard on the film and on the projector motor.
The 938 and 940 designs are the same as the 926GL,with the same superb sound system and the beautiful outboard mixing console but they have a conventional straight through film path with two sprockets (the 926 has no feed sprocket, relying on a 'loop absorber') The 938 is my all time favourite projector (and I do have a GS1200)

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted August 11, 2005 01:39 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Paul, it's very good to hear from someone who has the same projector! So, the cables in the back (for recording) or coaxial cables? I want to be sure of that. Furniture polish?! Really? Wow, I would have never thought of that, is it important as to what kind of polish I should you? as I don't want some kind of polish that will flame up on me as I'm projecting. I've just used a slight small watercolor brush to lightly brush the film path, but polish, hmmm. Is there any chance of thier being a build-up of polish which could screw up the films or film path? As you have one of these 926's you know far better than I do, and I know for a fact that this ones a keeper! I've had a number of projecotors over the years and I have had a nasty habit of tinkering too much and so I don't want to screw up on this baby!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 11, 2005 02:01 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Osi,
The recording sockets on the back of the projector are designed to interface with special DIN plugs. You can get these from Radio Shack, just take your projector down to the store and show them what you want. When you get the plugs, wire them up to standard RCA red and black male plugs using pins 3,5, and 2 for stereo recording. Looking at the back of the projector, the input socket for microphone, tape recorder, DVD audio etc, is the socket on the extreme right. The next one to the left is the line output, to playback the projector sound thru an external amplifier. The next socket to the left is for earphones, and the next two are the outputs for direct connection to 4 to 6 ohm (not 8) loudspeakers.
Johnson's Pledge or Favour furniture polish will not hurt your projector parts, I have been using it for 20 years or more. On the contrary regular use (spray parts and wipe off thoroughly) will result in a highly polished smooth surface in the film path areas, which is what you want. This is particularly important on the feed areas of the 926GL.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted August 11, 2005 02:54 PM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio   Email Maurizio Di Cintio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've been using this machine for more than 15 years now and, congrats for your purchase. Yes, it's superb, especailly in terms of sound quality and pict steadiness. But please note: sound heads are very 'soft' and tend to wear out after a few hours of hard use. In fact this is not the kind of machine I'd re-record features' soundtrack on, although I've done it (but I also own some spare sound heads...). So be careful: Derann prints are made on poly film base and is therefore 'paste striped', resulting in a more abrasive action to the heads than it would be with standard laminated stripe. Track 2 head tends to wear much more rapidly and the effect of this is much more noticeable than track 1.

If you really want to re-record with this machine, the best way you have to minutely control its speed is this: remove the black speed control knob by pulling it outward after taking off the lamp cover (there will be a click -resistance but don't worry). This way, you will have access to the preset bolt used in the factory to fine adjust th

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Maurizio

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Maurizio Di Cintio
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 977
From: Ortona, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004


 - posted August 11, 2005 02:58 PM      Profile for Maurizio Di Cintio   Email Maurizio Di Cintio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've been using this machine for more than 15 years now and, congrats for your purchase. Yes, it's superb, especailly in terms of sound quality and pict steadiness. But please note: sound heads are very 'soft' and tend to wear out after a few hours of hard use. In fact this is not the kind of machine I'd re-record features' soundtrack on, although I've done it (but I also own some spare sound heads...). So be careful: Derann prints are made on poly film base and is therefore 'paste striped', resulting in a more abrasive action to the heads than it would be with standard laminated stripe. Track 2 head tends to wear much more rapidly and the effect of this is much more noticeable than track 1.

If you really want to re-record with this machine, the best way you have to minutely control its speed is this: remove the black speed control knob by pulling it outward after taking off the lamp cover (there will be a click -resistance but don't worry). This way, you will have access to the preset bolt used in the factory to fine adjust the prj's speed: it's white, exagonal and made of what seems to be nylon. You can easily manouvre it by means of some tool I do not know how to describe, but once you get to see that part, it really is self-explanatory. By adjusting the speed in this way rather than in the normal way, you get much finer corrections that are totally inaudible. In fact you should be very prompt to start compensating for any possible speed shift once you have spot it the way someone else has described above, BUT at the same time, not too abrupt, nay very gentle, I should say, otherwise you will easily detect the speed change during playback (sorry: projection).

Enjoy yourself

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Maurizio

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 11, 2005 03:09 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Maurizio,
Have you ever located a source for replacement heads on the Eumig 926/938/940?

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted August 11, 2005 10:07 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Boy Howdy!! I am so totally stoked with all this immensely good info on recording with my own projector here.

But now, for a moment, back to the cleaning. With this furniture polish (I choose pledge) do you spray it right into the film pathway, or do you swab it in, or brush it in with a non-abrasive paintbrush, for instance. As stated before, I have only been using a regular soft water color brush, (very soft bristles.) The main film gate, (I think that what it is called, hell, I don't know the technical term!), where the light peeps thru ... (THERE,) that doesn't pop out too far and I don't want to force it ... advice?

all the best!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 12, 2005 01:37 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage   Email John Clancy   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Use a cotton bud Osi.

A friend of mine has one of these Eumig's and sadly the sound head has gone on the balance track.

If there is a source for replacement sound heads I'd also like to know so we can finally get my friend's machine repaired.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Rick Skowronek
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 120
From: Marietta Georgia USA
Registered: May 2005


 - posted August 12, 2005 08:37 AM      Profile for Rick Skowronek   Email Rick Skowronek   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi John,

Im not saying a tape head can't go bad. That is, puts out absolutely nothing, but in my years servicing everything from high-end professional tape units down to low cost consumer units, and that probably comes close to 800 or 900 of them, I can honestly say I've not seen a tape head just open up and put out nothing. They certainly wear and that virtually destroys the frequency response but it still puts out audio. I've seen broken wires to the heads, bad tape head preamps, etc., etc., but not an opened up head. Occasionally the head gets enough magnetic particle gook in it to short across the head gap but usually that's corrected by a good cleaning with isopropyl alcohol and a cotton swab (which I assume you've done).

A quick check to see if it's the head itself or the electronics is to put the machine in play in stereo mode, volume down to lower 1/3, and take a small screw driver and touch each lead of the playback head. Two of the leads are shield grounds so you won't hear anything from them. The other two will be the "hot" leads to the respective balance stripe amp and the main stripe amp. You should hear substantial hum from each individually when touched. If the head is too buried to get at easily you can pop the head assembly off it's main mounts or go straight to the amplifier board and touch the leads there. That would eliminate everything but the wires from the head themselves.

If you can get directly to the head and do hear hum from both equally then you've got the first open head I've seen. If it is, you might try this company in the UK to see if they have something that may match up. It should be a 1/4 inch tape path head, 1/2 track (2 - 1/2 tracks for stereo) record/playback head.

Don't know what success you may have on aftermarket for that configuration: http://www.phi-magnetronics.co.uk/cassette.html

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 12, 2005 11:38 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Osi,
I use Radio Shack 'cleaning sticks'. These are basically double ended cotton swabs on very long wooden sticks, so you can get to all those tricky areas in the 926 film path. Radio shack sells them in packs of 100 for about $5.00.
1. Spray the furniture polish on the end of the cotton swab so that the swab is saturated and quite wet, then wipe all the film path areas, gate, rollers etc. Make sure the claw is withdrawn from the gate(turn the knob at the back of the machine until it is withdrawn) before poking around in the gate area. On the 926 play particular attention to the plastic film channel and "flapper roller" above the gate. These need to be spotless to avoid film scratching, and polishing these areas will greatly assist film threading. If you pull off the little clear plastic piece, you can access this whole area for meticulous cleaning.

2. Clean the sound head by first removing the sound pressure pad assembly (With unit not plugged in , turn rotary knob clockwise to the second position, engage the little red plastic socket key provided with the projector to the hex head right beneath the sound head, and turn clockwise, and withdraw the pressure pad. Blow out the sound head with a can of compressed air. Clean the little plastic pressure pad levers (very carefully so you don't break them) with furniture polish on cotton swabs.

3.Do NOT apply polish to the large sound pressure pad roller (black rubber) or the stainless steel capstan roller (polish here will cause slippage and sound track WOW), these areas should be cleaned with the cotton swabs soaked in alcohol and then blown dry.

4.Finally blow out the gate and whole film path with a can of compressed air, to remove any hairs that hace come off the cleaning swabs.

5.You can of course use furniture polish directly on the outer surfaces and covers of the projector to keep your projector looking beautiful (and the 926 is a beautiful looking machine), just make sure you remove the lens so you dont get any polish on it.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted August 12, 2005 01:57 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree, nice looking machine! It's that control consolethat really gets me. Yeah, okay, I'm always distracted by all the bells and whistles, but all these guages for sound levels are really cool.

When I do get around to re-recording, i think I'll actually start with a number of the classic warner Brother toons, as the new conpletely re-mastered DVD collections have truly booming soundtracks and a problem with these classic cartoons is that the original soundtracks can be, well, mariginal at best!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 12, 2005 02:14 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi, one thought I had , which may ease your fear of losing the original sound track, is to start out by just recording onto track 2, leaving track 1 with the original sound. That way, you can practice your start ups and maintaining sync just on track 2, with zero risk to track 1. Then when you get more confident, jump right into stereo re-recording. Godd Luck!

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted August 12, 2005 03:39 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
THAT ... was a good idea! I'll try that when I record. Should I "Pledge" my projector after EVERY use? I just don't want to overdo it.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 12, 2005 08:09 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You cannot overclean your projector. The best philosophy is to clean before every use, that way you will NEVER get any scratches or dust blobs on your film prints, at least not with Eumig projectors, which are about the kindest projectors out there to film. Keeping your projector meticulously clean is the first law of 8mm film collecting!

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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