8mm Forum: The "Mystery Woman" on super 8!

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Topic: The "Mystery Woman" on super 8!

Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted December 06, 2005 10:39 AM

Here's a question for all of you trivia buffs. If you own many a Blackhawk laurel and Hardy print, (or other Hal Roach films from Blackhawk) You will notice during the countdown to the start of the film, about five frames of a lovely woman before the film starts. This is only found on the original leader supplied from the Hal Roach studio's on thier prints.

I know I'm not the first person to see this lovely woman. The question is :

WHO IS SHE?

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 06, 2005 12:04 PM

Yes I have noticed her as well all 4 frames of her normally after the number 3. I suspect this is a std Kodak test chart.
Kodak produced loads of these at one time for setting up printers etc and they can still be seen on some of the colour prints. I have even seen them still in use by the lab that Derann use. They had a special name but for the life of me I cant remember what it was. Kodak even used these very plastic looking dolls dressed in highly coloured tops in front of various colour patches with a grey patch in front.
Those were the days [Big Grin]

When I worked at Ilford Films we used to call them the "Nora Neg" These were used for setting up colour printers for std prints from camera negs. There were 3 negs on a strip at -3 Normal & +3 f stops so that you could set the machines up to cope with at least 3 stops over and under exposeure.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted December 06, 2005 11:14 PM

So once you made a print of that "Nora Neg" what did you call her then... Paula Pos? [Wink]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 07, 2005 08:51 AM

quote:
They had a special name but for the life of me I cant remember what it was.

These test or control pictures were called "Lillies". One bit of Hollywood Lore has it that one of the first girls was named "Lilly", another that there were pictures of flowers and fruits in a bowl. They were also called "China Girls" because some labs used ceramic figurines for the test frames.

I think this started with Technicolor and most labs produced there own control "girl". Many were spliced into the leader (although I've never seen one where it belongs--i.e. in the leader there are four frames marked with C F in the corners that is to be replaced with a control picture). This refers to the last "leader" the SMPTE Universal leader which was to replace both the SMPTE leader (the tv target leader) and the Academy leader (footage count down with just 35mm footage numbers, i. e. Pict Start [12 foot], 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3. The Universal leader went in seconds to 2 seconds (ironically 3 feet).

John

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted December 07, 2005 11:22 AM

The reason why I asked this question, is that if you look at the leader to most of the Laurel and Hardy (as well as the other Hal Roach releases from Blackhawk), you will find that the leader on the film is actual leaders used by the Hal Roach studio's, actually designating that. The woman seen in these leaders, is certianly of a hair style of the early to late thirties, (I'm speaking of the black and white films), and I'd swear that this was at least one of the "stock player" at hal Roach studio's

I'm a just LOVING this post, also relishing that fact that naughty little Osi Osgood, has myriads of forum members looking at thier Blackhawk leaders. HAH!! Subversive little OSI!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 07, 2005 07:40 PM

quote:
you will find that the leader on the film is actual leaders used by the Hal Roach studio's, actually designating that.

Osi,

The original release of Way Out West and most of the sound L&H was thru MGM and printed at the studio lab. If the leaders were original, then they'd have the MGM studio id's. These negatives went thru many many hands over the years and the linage has been documented by others elsewhere. Blackhawk used negative that were also used by a tv distributor. It was a bit unusual for studios to use a "lilly" on black and white, but it could be that a color leader was picked up along the way when the "lion was cut" from the negatives.

John

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 08, 2005 05:43 AM

John, that all brings back some memories. Yes I do remeber them being called Lillies and yes I too remeber the bowls of fruit etc.
I'm sure though that Kodak called them by a different name. Maybe I can find something on the Kodak web site. I have to point out that the ones I have used before were for still image printing but I dont think they are any different in their make-up. The idea is that the overall colour within the frame averages a netral grey when measured with a diffuse densitometer or other special measureing equipment. The same goes for the B/W but in this case it refs a netral grey at about a midpoint grey. Wont go any further into the science of all this here but its great fun remembering all this as its what I was very much involved with during my days at Ilford Films. [Smile]

Kev

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 08, 2005 10:00 AM

There was an exhibit earlier this year in New York featuring some of the more recent examples of lovely ladies used for the nefarious purpose of color timing.
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2005/07.21/00-girls.html

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted December 08, 2005 10:38 AM

Very cool Douglas!

I don't know where the different studio's got thier leader, all I know is that many of my Blackhawk prints say, somewhere on the leader, "Hal Roach Studio's". I don't know if this was thier own studio designation, originating with the studio, or it was tacked on by the film labs, whereever they were.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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James N. Savage 3
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1375
From: Washington, DC
Registered: Jul 2003

posted December 08, 2005 03:47 PM

That was great info Doug!! I'll have to see if that exhibit is coming to the Washington DC area. Really cool [Smile]

.

By the way, that last girl looked VERY familiar. I'm almost certain I've see her before in a movie or TV show. Does she look familiar to anyone else??

Nick.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 08, 2005 05:33 PM

Absolutely great to find that link Doug. It would be great to see some more. I certainly remember that one of the Doll with the Black wig. I can allways remember thinking how gruesome she looked [Big Grin]

There were many more of them. Kodak pumped them out to the labs all the time but I do remember they were expensive to buy. Yes you had to buy them.
Great bit of nostalgia. Thanks [Smile]

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted December 10, 2005 11:05 AM

I, too, have noticed frames of beautiful ladies on a few of my feature-film leaders... and wondered what the deal was (although I immediately realized it had to do with color grading). But this topic has been a fascinating read... and the article in the link posted above mentions the words Girls on film somewhere near the bottom, which immediately reminded me of the Duran Duran song of the same name... now I find myself wondering if these color-grading film strips were in fact the inspiration for the song... [Smile]

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/duranduran/girlsonfilm.html

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Barry Johnson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 358
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2003

posted December 10, 2005 01:00 PM

Yes,and do you know what? That bird or an updated edition,still appears on new 35mm release prints.
Those labs that are politically correct for their sins,is a colour chart.Boring.Much rather see the lady!!!

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Standard8 rules!!

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