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Topic: Disney Sound Problem

Brian Hendel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 902
From: New York, New York
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 24, 2005 08:55 AM

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Happy Holidays everyone! I'm having a little problem that's dampering my Xmas. I was planning on showing my print of Mickey's Christmas Carol this year at a holiday party but the sound has always bothered me - it came from Derann muffled and low. So I bought the DVD and re-recorded it in stereo on my GS1200 with disasterous results. There is loud popping and low distorted sound... and you can still hear the old soundtrack echoing in the background! I did a test with another piece of film and it recorded perfectly. What does this mean? Is the actual magnetic track bad on the film?! What do I do?! I paid full price for the print and am very up set about it. I want to send it back to Derann and have them try to re-record it but I'm afraid they will say no because I tried to record it myself. Any advice? [Confused]

[Confused]

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 24, 2005 11:06 AM

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Hey Brian,
I wouldn't worry too much about it. Derann can re-record the print as long as you didn't alter the film length by trimming the academy leaders. If the film is intact they can re-record it no problem. Even though you did try to re-record it yourself they still would have had to re-record if you sent it back to them. Drop Gary a line. They are great! And have a Merry Xmas!
(And check out your GS recordings with another little film to see if its your machine or the stripe on the print)

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 24, 2005 12:09 PM

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Brian

Such bad news. It may seem a daft question but you did have the film going through the right way round? Yes I know it sounds daft but I just wondered if the GS is powerful enough to actually record on to a mag stripe through the base? Or would that mean the tracks would be reversed?

Just a thought.

Did you replace the capacitor like so many others have done?

Hope you get it sorted

--------------------
Tony

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 24, 2005 12:17 PM

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Low distorted sound will be the famous capacitor in the recording circuit.

Tony, Play the film back to front??? Impossible to do unless you put it on the machine tail first and then I think he would notice the upside down picture [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

Kev.

[Smile]

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Brian Hendel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 902
From: New York, New York
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 24, 2005 02:13 PM

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I definitely had the film threaded the right way. I am pretty daft I admit, but I would notice if the picture was upside down! I have not tried the capacitor switch since that is way over my head technically... It's just very odd that as well as the low distorted sound you could still hear the old sound bleeding through. I have to say the sound stripe looks a bit odd to me, too. It's dark on both sides... unlike most of my other prints that the stripe is a lighter shade on one side of the film. And since I tested another film and it recorded fine, I'm thinking it's the actual sound stripe that has a problem. I've written to Gary at Derann and am keeping my fingers crossed that he will take it back and either re-record it successfully or replace the print. Thanks for your advice.

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted December 24, 2005 02:18 PM

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Brian,

the fact that you can record just fine on other films suggests that your capacitor isn't the problem. From your description of the sound stripe, it seems to be that infamous laminate stripe they put on polyester-base film, whereas acetate films carry a glued-on magnetic tape stripe. Chip Gelmini and I were recently discussing laminate stripe and we both agreed that it doesn't hold re-recordings too well... I even have a mylar print (probably Agfacolor) of 7TH VOYAGE OF SINBAD with such laminate stripes and the sound is not that great, merely OK - with a few dropouts here and there. And it never was re-recorded. [Eek!]

[Eek!]

--------------------
Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Lance Alspaugh
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 152
From: Los Angeles, Ca
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 26, 2005 07:33 PM

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Gentlemen,

Happy Holidays to all. We have had several experiences with re-recording the mag stripes and there is a Difference on certain prints made by Derann as well as some of the German prints. The darker stripe you are referring to, in our experience, has not produced a high quality remix on the Main or Balance Stripe. We had to junk a print of "Fugitive" as it was impossible to get a good remix even though the picture quality was outstanding. Lots of noise, poor fidelity and irregularities in the stripe. We have excellent results with Prints that are 30 years old, as they record better than some of the new prints. As for this member, I truly wish Derann could remedy the sound stripe problem and make it as pristine as the incredible picture quality they achieve. Its not good for the future of the hobby to have poor physical mag stripes. Thanks to Kevin, we have changed the capacitor's on all of our GS 1200's, and while this has improved sound quality after a remix on these defective stripes, it is not up to the quality of older stripes. If the stripe is poorly made and applied, the results will not be favorable even with the new capacitor. As for sound quality on older prints with the new capacitor, the results can be truly astounding and as good as the picture quality of new Derann titles. Gary at Derann is great about re-recording poor sound tracks if the leaders are attached, so it may be your best bet to have him do that. For those that have acquired the "Master and Commander" print, how is the quality of the sound track? Best Regards...

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Brian Hendel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 902
From: New York, New York
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 30, 2005 05:49 AM

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Just an update: The always helpful Gary at Derann has agreed to take my "Mickey's Xmas Carol" back and try to re-record the stereo sound. That will determine if it is indeed a stripe problem or it's just a print I can't successfully record over myself.

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted December 30, 2005 01:52 PM

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I'm beginning to wonder what kind of machinery they use for re-recording sound films, as I very much doubt Derann is running a stable of GS1200s hooked up to DVD players. More like some kind of high-speed recorder that records the sound at faster-than-normal speed while using the film's perforation for timing/synchronization, but without actually projecting an image (there would be no point, I suppose). Am I about right? [Smile]

[Smile]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 30, 2005 02:23 PM

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Interesting you should ask!

There is a film out there called Cinema in Miniature which portrays the Super-8 hobby as it existed in the UK in years past. Among many other tidbits it gives a brief tour of Derann and shows their film sound recorder. It is a high speed unit recording audio stored on a 16mm wide sound master tape (if I remember right) and does not show the image. If they have the same equipment today or not, I can't tell you.

This is still available from Derann as a PAL video tape, however mine is on good old Super-8 film. (I bought it used)

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted December 30, 2005 09:13 PM

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Yes Derann do still use the high speed recorder for recording their sound. Dearann also produce their own mag paste for applying to their own films. Its not a laminate stripe like the Greman labs use. I have found the more recent paste they use on the Kodak stock excellent for recording onto but have to say that there was a period on the Agfa stock where the stripe quality was a bit iffy.
Get the film back to Derran for a rerecord and hopefully that should sort the probelm for you.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Brian Hendel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 902
From: New York, New York
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 31, 2006 07:46 PM

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Just an update. I received my print of Mickey's Xmas Carol back from Derann and sadly they can only re-record the sound in mono. Gary reported to me that their sound recorder is broken and they have no plans to repair it. It's a bit of a bummer for me since I bought it because it was in stereo.

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Craig Hamilton
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 501
From: Luton
Registered: Sep 2004

posted February 01, 2006 07:23 AM

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Interesting, does this spell the end of any new stereo release from Derann? Or any new releases altogether?

Craig

--------------------
I dream of becoming a dealer!!!!!!
Is Perry's Movies for Sale.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 02, 2006 05:22 AM

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Bloody hell!!! Does this mean no more Stereo films from Derann? [Frown]

[Frown]

They were the only remaining compnay that were able to do this on their releases.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 02, 2006 08:53 AM

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Kev, I assume this does NOT mean that they will no longer be applying the balance stripe! [Frown]

[Frown]

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 02, 2006 09:07 AM

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This sounds very odd - it's not just significant in terms of new releases, there's also all the old releases that people expect to be in stereo if they order a copy.

--------------------
Adrian Winchester

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

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From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 02, 2006 07:07 PM

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Hopefully Derann will reply shortly to let us know what's up with future stereo recordings.
Jan, here's a pic of Ged at the 16mm mag stock playback unit. I believe that the Super 8mm recorder in question is the machine in the far back (If my memory serves me right).

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

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From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 03, 2006 09:27 PM

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Having given this more thought, I think there may be a misunderstanding here. Gary must be referring to the machine used to re-record a single print in stereo. Therefore, this would not prevent the recording of new stereo prints on the machines they use to record TWO prints before slitting. This situation actually existed before they got whatever it is that has broken down. I recall Ged telling me around the late 1980s that they turned a stereo print that was returned with faulty sound into a mono print, and gave the customer a new stereo one.

This of course puts more onus on Derann to check sound on prints before slitting. I must say that in my experience, I've had to return stereo prints more often than mono ones; usually because the sound on one track is far better than the other.

--------------------
Adrian Winchester

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

posted February 04, 2006 11:52 AM

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I've wondered this before (though I'd forgotten in the meantime), but... why doesn't Derann offer (striped) feature prints without sound to those that have the capability and resources to do their own stereo sound recording at home? I would think that although the audience would be very small indeed, Derann could save themselves a step and offer prints at a much-reduced price which might entice those into buying it who otherwise wouldn't feel ready to shell out the dough (for a fully recorded print). And a small profit for Derann is better than no profit.... right?

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
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posted February 04, 2006 12:16 PM

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I would definately welcome that Jan, as I re-record just about everything I get anyway, except of course those unique films and shorts which are not available on DVD.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 04, 2006 04:56 PM

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And with the assurance that the print matched the DVD or HI-FI VHS. It would be a real pain if the feature you got from Derann didnt match the video you wanted to transfer the sound off. Some of the prints that Derann have released have got excellent Stereo sound tracks and I wouldnt want to mess with them.

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 05, 2006 07:44 AM

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I suspect the Derann position on selling films without sound would be that as they would have to record the other print of the two, they wouldn't save any time by selling one without sound. Therefore there would be no incentive to offer a discount. If two people both wanted a title without sound that was out of stock and had to be printed, they might offer a modest discount. People wanting to run a DVD in sync would probably get a better discount if they wanted an unstriped print.

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Adrian Winchester

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