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Author Topic: A Scratch - Elmo Film Guide Wear (Correct?)
Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted September 22, 2016 02:51 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Tom's projector was ok aside from a worn out sound head and a faulty lens from what I can gather.

Otherwise, he said he'd like to find another in the future from what I remember.

He certainly wasn't screaming blue murder that his new (to him) machine was scratching every print he put through it!
Nor would he ever have done!!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Browning
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1006
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
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 - posted September 22, 2016 04:02 AM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
But was never really the experience likely to encourage any one else to buy one, who you kidding.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted September 22, 2016 04:03 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
No one, ever.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted September 22, 2016 06:47 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey all, i was looking around last night and thinking about all our equipment.
Spending too much money on keeping them all going is great and of course essential if we are to go on for many more years watching our movies. However,
Isn't there a lot of reasonably price projectors out there? I know you have to be careful etc etc but i dont recall there being such a time where there are so many good machines going for prices that often are lower than getting older ones repaired. [Wink]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted September 22, 2016 07:19 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
You're right of course Tom, there are.
My only issue with continually buying more and more projectors and just simply discarding a faulty one or perhaps keeping it for spares, is simply that I look upon these things like used cars.
By that I mean, I tend to buy my cars from nearly new, say around six months old, and then keep them for as long as they can last before costing me a fortune to maintain.

I prefer this method simply because, this way, you become very very familiar with its behaviours, you know the entire history of the car and all of its repairs and I've found by using this method of ownership throughout my adult life so far, it represents the best value for money for me so far as cars are concerned.

Similarly, once I've owned a projector a number of years and learned all of its quirks and behaviours, I find myself enjoying this familiarity and then I know what it needs and when if things are less than perfect.

By continually swapping machines, I don't believe I'd ever feel entirely comfortable in the manner I do today by sticking with what I know and trust in.
For me personally, I'd rather just have 3 or 4 that I continue to maintain rather than regularly swapping and changing models.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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David Hardy
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 955
From: Johnshaven Village , Montrose, Scotland
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted September 23, 2016 04:13 AM      Profile for David Hardy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What really makes me angry is that you don't notice your print has been scratched on those over rated and over engineered Elmo
GS 1200s and their ilk until the next run of the print.
They scratched a pristine feature film of mine all the way through down the right hand side.
Hundreds of pounds spent down the bloody drain, a ruined print and
all because the manufacturer couldn't get the film path right. [Mad]

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" My equipment's more important than your rats. "

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Tom Photiou
Film God

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From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted September 23, 2016 06:43 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Must admit, ive only ever had the ST1200HD's, The ST800 and the ST600, very rarely used the 600 as i dont like the front guides, but the GS is one i always wanted but they are expensive if they go wrong and they are well over engineered, good machines though once you get the modified front guide.
I think the 1200HD is certainly one of the most reliable and easy to fix.(mechanically) [Wink]

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Paul Browning
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: West Midlands United Kingdom
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 - posted September 23, 2016 07:54 AM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What bad luck David. Many thousands of feet of film later we are much wiser about the GS and other Elmo guides, I guess I've been lucky with my machines with all the mods done before my owner ship, but I'm always on my guard with any projector no matter what the make or model.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted September 23, 2016 09:06 AM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My angle on this is just because any of these machines starts scratching prints 40 years down the line doesn't make them bad designs.

How many TV sets from the mid 70's are still on the job, how many cars, stoves, dishwashers or blenders?

-all of this stuff has been replaced 3 times over by now. The problem if you're a movie projector is the relief troops aren't coming!

The great thing about this Forum is because of it we know what to expect and are on guard for it. Two weeks ago my ST-1200HD's lower guide started to show some wear and I saw it before it caused me grief. 20 years ago I would have figured it out after my prints were chopmeat!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

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From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted September 23, 2016 12:00 PM      Profile for David Roberts     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
ive had about 7 st1200"s in my time and only gave up on them after finding about a third of all my films damaged with twin green scratches all the way through.
such a shame because in every other respect,the elmo was my ideal machine,but I just cant trust them anymore.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

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From: Plymouth U.K
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 - posted September 23, 2016 12:10 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Blimey David, two green scratches is bad, i know when the guides wear they can make a single line down the right but green scratches is something i have never encountered. Sorry to hear that though as clearly one or more of your films have been ruined.
[Frown]

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Graham Ritchie
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From: New Zealand
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 - posted September 23, 2016 05:29 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have been wondering of late of what would be involved in completely replacing all those green guides with steel or plastic rollers on a ST1200 ie making a completely new manual guide system, where it would be impossible for there to be any contact on the image area on the film. [Roll Eyes]

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted September 23, 2016 08:58 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Isn't the twin scratch usually a roller on the inlet guide locking up?

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Tom Photiou
Film God

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From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted September 24, 2016 02:20 AM      Profile for Tom Photiou     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think your right there Steve, i have recently had my machine serviced by the big chief of Elmo Bill Parsons, on mine,(although the front guides are not a problem n these) one of things Bill said he did was to get the little plastic rollers all turning again, this is of course a main thing on any machine i would guess, also had a new sound pressure pad put in that i bought brand new as these are also a possible culprit.
Going back to start of the thread,
Peter, have you got anywhere with this?

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David Roberts
Master Film Handler

Posts: 405
From: Suffolk. England
Registered: Apr 2004


 - posted September 24, 2016 04:50 AM      Profile for David Roberts     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
the scratches I refer to were not lines but large green dots,one above the other on left of picture.
I think it may have been to do with the lower loop "wacking"itself against one of the guides,and of course being after the gate,i didn't discover the problem until about 20 of my films damaged.
I still view those film but the scratches drive you crazy,you cant help looking at them!
such a shame because in every other respect the st1200 is a great machine.

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Paul Browning
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: West Midlands United Kingdom
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 - posted September 24, 2016 07:37 AM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Perhaps Elmo should adopted the slot loading system from there 16mm projector, that does seem to have a lot of rubber rollers in the film path, looks simple enough to load too. The Fumeo has metal rollers with "O " rings machined into the contact area, so minimal contact with the film, the plastic roller could be machined with a groove and fitted with a suitable "O" ring, with possibly the same effect, plus you would get drive from the film transport, it might counter the plastic rollers from not turning.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted September 25, 2016 05:31 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
The points David made earlier in his last two posts here, mirror my own experiences entirely with these projectors over many different decades.

David has tried his luck seven times, I tried mine only five before drawing up the very same conclusion as David.

I've experienced twin dots in picture exactly as David describes, I've experienced green lines. I've experienced green lines being placed permanently until the projector is halted, I've experienced intermittent lines being placed on the picture until halted.
I never once felt comfortable sitting more than two feet away from the projector knob. You just never knew the minute.

Sometimes I was lucky, they occurred before the gate, other times, I wasn't so fortunate and noticed nothing until I ran the film again on another occasion.

All in all, I struggled regularly to keep a constant lower and upper loop at times, regularly the lower loop would be lost for no apparent reason but was especially prone after a splice.

These experiences were exactly the same when the machines were in their relative infancy as when they were 30 years plus old.

David otherwise liked the overall design of the ST1200.
Aside from the overall build quality, I had many other moans regarding these. Not least because of the level of wow and speed variation.

In the end, I simply gave up with them.
It's a decision I've never regretted once since.

--------------------
"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Browning
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1006
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
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 - posted September 25, 2016 08:23 AM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
With all due respects we are not discussing David's experiences with his Elmo's, the thread was started by Peter and his seeking advice about the machine he has, but it always turns into an underline attack by you to discredit completely the Elmo, and its not even the machine he owns either, stick to the bloody question Andrew, and not some kind of guilt trip for buying one. The horror stories are out there, we get it, lets move on "FFS".

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted September 25, 2016 08:33 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I do indeed still have one of these for the time being.
David spoke of his experiences, I was simply doing likewise Paul, cementing only my own experiences on each of his own points raised.

My views on these has been well versed on any forum I frequent.

To that end, there is nothing more I could add all in all and so this certainly isn't intended as an Elmo bashing exercise.
As said earlier, each to their own.

Digression often occurs on any forum topic, just as in the same way real life discussion does also Paul.

Just about any subject matter ever raised here or on any forum could be accused of a certain degree of digression or hijacking (whatever that means regarding forum conversation?)

The same findings from owners reoccur on all models even if the design differs somewhat from one model to another.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Browning
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1006
From: West Midlands United Kingdom
Registered: Aug 2011


 - posted September 25, 2016 11:23 AM      Profile for Paul Browning   Email Paul Browning   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Its a case of selling the car because the ash try is full, dress it up how you like, nobody does it better, its just pompous clap trap, and I won't digress from the initial question.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted September 25, 2016 11:42 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, your post earlier did exactly the same thing as my own, but if that's how you perceive things, so be it.
As said...each to their own.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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