8mm Forum: I was just wondering.......

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Topic: I was just wondering.......

Barry Attwood
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1411
From: Enfield, U.K.
Registered: Aug 2003

posted September 18, 2008 10:03 AM

I know that 24 f.p.s. is the industry standard for projecting sound films, but does anyone know who brought this about, and have there been any other speeds used proffesionnaly. It was just a stray thought, but it could lead to an interesting series of answers, as I know there are many knowledgable members out there.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted September 18, 2008 10:10 AM

I've sometimes wondered about that too, Barry.

I've noticed, however, that the push to move up to a unified film speed began in the later silent film years. Those Laurel and hardy late silents were already up to the sound speed.

Perhaps, could it be that sound films "fidelity" would not be at it's proper fullness without that 24 fps?

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Barry Johnson
Master Film Handler

Posts: 358
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2003

posted September 18, 2008 01:23 PM

Eugene Lauste was the mans name who came up with optical sound on film.Back then,the soundtrack covered a third of the 35mm frame,and was variable density at first and then unilateral variable area.He arrived at 24fps by watching filmed piano recitals which provided the correct pitch without any audible distortion.
A lot of works and fiddling around with prototypes finally ended up with sound on film which,in superior form,is with us today.

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Standard8 rules!!

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted September 18, 2008 03:21 PM

Sound on film is SUCH an interesting topic. Most people think of the Jazz singer, of course, but sound films were being made from at least 1922, with assorted levels of success. Though Disney gets credit with "Steamboat Willie, Max Fleischer was doing sound cartoons way back in 1924, with synchronized lip movements even!

Just the very process that went into this process is fascinating in itself. It's interesting that one of the very first uses of digital sound was the optical soundtrack.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Rob Koeling
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Brighton, UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted September 18, 2008 04:01 PM

A very interesting documentary on the subject is 'The Dawn of Sound: How Movies Learned to Talk'. It is one of the extra's on the'The Jazz Singer' deluxe edition DVD set that came out last year (I believe it is both on the 2 disc UK set and on the 3 disc US set)

I'm not sure if the question of why 24fps is answered in this doc, but I'm fairly sure that Eugene Lauste gets his credit. A big chunk of the doc is about the race between the people advocating sound-on-film versus the Vitaphone fans.

- Rob

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Hugh McCullough
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 156
From: Old Coulsdon. Surrey. UK
Registered: Oct 2006

posted September 18, 2008 04:52 PM

I always understood that it was not the fps that dictated the speed of sound films, but the footage that was recorded/projected per minute.
It was found that the slowest speed for adequate reproduction of sound, at the time, was 90 ft per min.
Using the standard frame height this resulted in 24 fps. Actually this was the first time that film speed had been standardised.
In the days of silent films hand cranked cameras were at the mercy of the cameraman, and the projectionist probably cranked at a faster speed so that he could get home early.
Any speed slower than 90 ft resulted in poor sound reproduction. Faster speeds would result in better sound quality, but more film would be used and therefore film costs would be more.

This reared it's head again with the introduction of Todd-AO 70mm film.
Originally films like Oklahoma, South Pacific etc. were filmed, and projected, at 30 fps to give better sound quality, but after a few years the accountants won the day, and normal 24 fps speed was used for all subsequent 70mm films.
The original 70mm projectors, Philips DP70, and the Cinemeccanica Victoria 10 have duel speeds of 30, and 24 fps. This was to enable them to run 35mm copies.

35mm film itself is a compromise.
It was the smallest size of film that would give an adequately focussed projected picture on the normal 8 to 12 feet wide screens used in the early days of silent films.

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EIKI Ex 6100 xenon machine.

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