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Topic: Best GS1200?

Mark Norton
Master Film Handler

Posts: 330
From: Hampton Hill, Middlesex, U.K.
Registered: Feb 2004

posted May 09, 2004 03:39 AM

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I am on the look out for a brand new second hand machine but which is best? I have been warned away from Xenons as I,ve heard that the Lamp power supply is of a poor design are very sensitive to variations in voltage. If one part on the lamp supply curcuit goes it has a domino effect and the lot goes. Also the cost of replacement xenon bulbs, Classic are avertising the "last one " at £500+! I know that new bulbs are available from the States but has annyone in the U.K. purchased one and how much was it?

There are the earlier backward looping machines and the later forward loopers which I believe were produced after complaints about splices breaking and have reduced voltage to the lamp to improve life on the standard halogen GS. So it seems the older ones give a brighter picture but the newer ones have an improved bottom loop desighn.

Hmmm

Mark

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 09, 2004 04:38 AM

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Where do I start? Here goes:
The later machines have a rear loop not a forward loop and the loop was changed mainly due to problems with optical sound. On the earlier machines the forward loop was far more curved as on the ST1200 but when running in optical the machines tended to loose the loop very easily and in some cases it didnt form at all. I know this for a fact as I was in talks with Elmo in Germany over this very problem and they supplied me with the little green guide from the ST1200 which did cure the problem but caused more flutter on sound like the ST1200 can suffer from. If the film had a splice it caused disturbance to the sound and caused wow as it went through the machine. Never heard of splices breaking because of the design and lets face it that type of loop has been in use for years on the ST1200 range without that problem.
As far as I know the spec for the lamp voltage never changed. The voltage has allways been a tad under 24V and is normally about 23.5 - 23.8V on the high setting but this is down to any fluctuations on the mains supply.
The mains transformer was changed early on in the life of the machines but this was for the take-up motors not the lamp. I do believe that Elmo changed the shutter blade angle in the later machines which could account for the slight drop in light output.
I have both the std machine and the xenon and on both of my machines I have removed the std shutters and installed 2 blade shutters. I have also done this for Chris Q and Tony M who use the forum and it does give at least a 1/3 more light output [Smile]

[Smile]

but makes the picture very flickery at 18FPS. [Frown]

[Frown]

I have not heard of this problem of total destruction of the power supply with knock on effeects to other parts of the machine and in fact can only say that looking at the circuit diagram the xenon power supply is completely seperate from the rest of the machine and literally runs straight off the mains so if it blows, [Mad]

[Mad]

the rest of the machine should stay intact. [Smile]

[Smile]

The components in the power supply look fairly std but maybe the chokes etc could be difficult to replace. The xenon lamps are expensive but I have been lucky to get a spare one off ebay for mine. An original Toshiba lamp for £60 brand new [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

They are now being manufactured in the US thanks to Steve S here on the forum and at an extremely good price, in fact cheaper than buying the genuine lamps new. Approx £140.00 for a new lamp isnt bad in my book.
So go for a later machine with the lines on the vol controls ( not dots) as you will then have a ver 2 or 3 machine or look for a xenon. Once you see your films with a xenon lamp there is no going back.
I have got a ver 3 machine which I am probably going to sell as I am just going to use the xenon which I have had for about 3 months.

Email me direct if you want to talk further and in deed we could have a chat on the phone.

Kev. [Smile]

[Smile]

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted May 09, 2004 05:42 AM

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Hello Kev, i thought you'd vanished havn't heard from you for a while, [Wink]

[Wink]

(sorry just saying howdy)

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 09, 2004 09:12 AM

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Hey,
I went to the Xenon's ...twice! And I went back to the Standard GS.... [Smile]

[Smile]

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Mike Peckham
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1461
From: West Sussex, UK.
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 09, 2004 02:52 PM

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Hello Mark

Whilst I'm sure that everything that has already been said is true, I have to say that I have an early model GS 1200 and it is just peachy [Smile]

[Smile]

, so if you see a good one at a good price don't let loops, lamps, dots and spots put you off [Wink]

[Wink]

.

Mike

--------------------
Auntie Em must have stopped wondering where I am by now...

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Ugo Grassi
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 506
From: Avellino (Italy)
Registered: Dec 2003

posted May 09, 2004 05:23 PM

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Angle of the blades shutter in the first version: 50°
angle of the blades shutter of the latest version: 53°

I don't know the reason of this difference. I suppose the 53° blades shutter was right for the Xenon version (temperature problems at 18 ft/s?); probably the Elmo factory used the same shutter on the halogen version too for economical reasons.

--------------------
Bye
Ugo

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 10, 2004 12:41 AM

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I have an early version too with the dots and it runs perfectly! Better than one of the Xenon's that had the newer loop and the slashes. My guess is that they are like cars. A nicely handled older model is better than a new "abused" model.
Good luck!

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 11, 2004 02:07 PM

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Alan,

I can vouch for Mike's machine- runs a treat. Tell me, why did you move away from Xenon and back to the GS1200 halogen?

Tony

--------------------
Tony

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 12, 2004 08:20 AM

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I had 3 xenon machines for over a year. As the other reviewers mentioned the main difference in the picture is the whiteness of the light as opposed to the brightness of the light itself.
However, the machine is louder due to the extra fan. Being in the same room as the machine is a little straining as I am literally 3 or 4 ft from the machine!
Also I have started to re-record the soundtracks and the Xenon is definitely NOT the way to go. The starting and stopping will kill the bulb in no time at all.
So after I sold 2 of the Xenon's I figured that I would just keep one and use the standard GS for recording. However once I received a very good standard GS Version 1 I noticed that I stopped using the Xenon. Yes, the xenon does have a brighter, whiter picture. However once I would thread up a reel I noticed that I appreciated the quietness of the standard. Plus..the bulb. If the standard blows..I am out $30. If the Xenon blows...$200+++.
All in all I am very happy with the standard and I don't ever feel like I have to rush out and get a Xenon again anytime soon. One day when I have a dedicated place for my projectors, then I will probably look into the Xenon again. But for now the GS standard is perfect!

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 13, 2004 07:30 AM

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Rik: The one point you are leaving out on lamp cost, is lamp life. The Halogen lamp runs 25-50 hours for $30 (2000 hrs for $1200 - $2400), the Xenon runs 2000 hrs for $200 . I know which one I'd rather have...

And the Xenon looks so much better than the halogen that there really is no comparison....

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 13, 2004 08:20 AM

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There is no denying on my part that the picture is brighter and the colors whiter. But....while I am watching a film on a standard GS...I do not find myself pining away for the Xenon. I just get caught up in the film itself.
True you do get more lamp life out of the Xenon but the cons for the machine definitely outweigh the pros at this point in my life. For others out there that want the "ultimate" machine may I suggest contacing Fumeo and having them handbuild you a 9145 Stereo Xenon. 500 watt xenon lamp...I guess you could go on and on. For me..I am happy!
Also one thing about the Xenon bulb. Once they are installed they need to be adjusted. Otherwise you can get a hotspot. And it might not be in the center. On the record Xenon there was a hotspot to the left of the picture. I called Leon and he informed me that I needed to adjust the bulb position and he said I could get to it by possibly removing the green film guide! (?)
Sorry...too much work for me to do. I just want to plug and play!
And the standard GS's do that perfectly. When I was watching "Flash Gordon" in scope last night, wow. I forgot what machine I was using, I was just amazed at the color, the size (10ft wide image) and the overall beauty of the picture.

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 13, 2004 09:28 AM

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Rik --

I think the psychological term to use here is "Rationalizing".....

However, if you really like the halogen machines - that's great.

Personally, I thought that even the xenon super 8 was too dim for my taste, which is why I sold all of my super 8 stuff and now only deal with 16mm... (And only Xenon)... The problem with super 8 and brightness is that you lose a lot of light blowing up a very small image to full screen size. 16mm has 4 x the area of a super 8 image (which also, of course, gives you a much more detailed picture). (And 35mm is aprox. 4 x the 16mm area)...

BTW - The lamp focus is not that big a deal, and seeing as you only have to do it once every 2000 hours of use, I really don't think it's much of an issue... 2000 hours = 2 hrs a day, 7 days a week for nearly 3 years......

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 14, 2004 01:12 AM

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Funny that, I get a brighter picture off the GS than I do through my 35mm, 16mm and video projectors. Perhaps the arc lamp produces brighter images than I realized.

Of course, there is an advantage of an arc lamp conversion over the true Xenon, namely, only the normal amount of fan noise.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 14, 2004 07:02 AM

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John,
Can you describe your Arc conversion for your lovely readers here? What kind of bulb, what modifications needed to be done, etc.
Thanks!

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 14, 2004 10:44 AM

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It's the 16mm arc lamp. Wittners sell the conversion pack I believe. Requires the power supply too which then powers the projector and strikes the lamp. The lamps cost over £100 now and they don't last very long. My present one has probably done about 60 hours and that's just about their life expectancy. Although I have to remember to engage the pause button every time the film is stopped otherwise nothing is blowing on the lamp and it would easily overheat.

However, the end result is outstanding - a standard GS-1200 putting out an incredibly bright picture. It may even be brighter than the Xenon but of course it is a more blue light than the Xenon. We may try it at the convention in the future if anything happens to Keith's standard Xenon. Need to fit a two-bladed shutter in it first though. One thing to bear in mind, this is a conversion machine and therefore if engaging sync' pulse mode and there is no pulse going to the machine the lamp is on and the heat shield is not in place - result is a burned frame. Care is therefore required before starting a show and ensuring the pulse is not interrupted.

I'm off to the Cornish abode for the weekend where I'm going to be trying out pulse syncing the latest DTS DVD's to Die Hard 2 and Alien. I'll also give the Dolby Digital Aliens DVD a go and sometime in the near future the Dolby Digital DVD of The Abyss. All these latest special editions have the theatrical versions of the films as well as the extended self-indulgent cuts.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 14, 2004 01:35 PM

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Hi John,

Why do you say that the MARC conversion (I assume you meann MARC lamp) is whiter than the Xenon? If it's the Gemini lamp, then I think it should be roughly the same -- although it might be a tad brighter because the Gemini is a 300W lamp while the Xenon lamp (which is also an arc lamp BTW) is 250W -- not sure how that translates into lumens for each lamp however....

You said it was brighter than your 16mm -- are you running Xenon ARC 16mm, or regular Halogen (ELC)? My Xenon 16mm machines are MUCH brighter than the Super 8 Xenon...

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 16, 2004 04:33 PM

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On my GS Xenon using a Schneider f1.1 elns I am getting approx 1200 lux accross a 3ft screen. This is a very good value in deed but must be measured after the lamp has been struck for about 10 mins as its output gets brighter and whiter. The Tosh 250W lamp is certainly a goodun. [Smile]

[Smile]

Kev.

--------------------
GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted May 18, 2004 07:05 AM

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The marc lamp gives a bluer light than the Xenon as you would expect.

I didn't say the arc lamp gives a much brighter image than my 35mm and 16mm but I did say it gives a brigher image. The 35mm and 16mm machines are using ordinary 250w lamps. What is amazing is the amount of light that is being squeezed through the 6mm aperture of the Super 8 projector. It even rivals both my video projectors.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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