8mm Forum: Derann's Midland Convention Cancelled

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Topic: Derann's Midland Convention Cancelled

Simon McConway
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1085
From: Doncaster, UK
Registered: Jun 2004

posted February 21, 2006 11:02 AM

Heard from Derann today that their Midlands Film Convention, to have been held on Sunday 2nd April, has now been cancelled. This is due to various reasons, according to Derann, such as staffing shortages, timing of event, venue etc.

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 21, 2006 12:34 PM

That's a bit of a shock, as they had taken care with the date this year to avoid Mother's Day.

This reminds me of an interesting letter from Phil Sheard in the latest issue of 'Projections' that makes a thought-provoking case for there to be less conventions each year. Although I'd be sorry to see any scaling down, Phil supports at least 7 each year, so I think his views carry some weight.

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Adrian Winchester

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Ian John
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: South Wales United Kingdom
Registered: Dec 2005

posted February 21, 2006 08:43 PM

There will be a hell of a lot of people who will be travelling up to the convention who don't know about it's cancellation. The Events page on Derann's web-site has not been changed, and still lists the Convention as being still on.

There are a lot of folk who attend each year that don't have a computer, and some of those who do have computers may not be members of this forum.

I receive Deranns 8mm/16mm listings that are emailed out each month, and I have not had any email from them to inform me of the Convention's cancelation. A lot of people will be out of pocket with travel costs just to find it's cancelled when they arrive there.

Ian. (UK)

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 22, 2006 08:35 AM

I hope the situation won't be quite that bad, as they are bound to send out a newsletter before then.

I haven't seen the official explanation, but considering that there is about 5 weeks to go, I can't really understand why there's a problem holding it, unless:
a) The venue has let them down due to some major unexpected problem, or
b) They have had a poor number of dealer bookings and they are worried that the event will go badly.

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Adrian Winchester

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 23, 2006 05:52 AM

I suspect it is down to a lack of dealer support. If this is the case then the blame lies in the Ebay area. Why do I say that? Because collectors rarely use dealers to get rid of their unwanted films nowadays as they can get more for them by selling individually on ebay.

Ebay has been extremely successful and has introduced (or re-introduced) some people to the Super 8 film collecting hobby. But ultimately it will be the demise of the hobby. It is not only film collecting that has suffered as a result but there is nothing that can be done about it.

Please everyone be aware I am not trying to wind anyone up with this post I am just stating what I believe to be the factual position and am probably in a better vantage point than most to have seen this given my involvement with the BFCC (which is now less than 3 months away - everyone got it in their diary???). Your support is needed - and don't forget to bring any unwanted films or equipment along to the bring and buy... or sell them onto a dealer [Big Grin]

.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 23, 2006 07:52 AM

Still think you should get up and do an Auction, Mr Clancy. [Big Grin]

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Ian John
Film Handler

Posts: 54
From: South Wales United Kingdom
Registered: Dec 2005

posted February 23, 2006 10:20 AM

I have to speak streight, and as I see it as a punter. Lack of suport for any type of convention be it film collector based or any other, is not always down to the film collectors lack of suport, it could also be down to sellers refusing to pay £40 upward for a small table.

Some firms who organize such events, do so becuase they are a buisness, and are there to make money, but sometimes it's THEIR greed for money that, in the end, drives sellers & buyers away.

I was talking to a seller last year (I will not devulge what convention it was) and he told me he was being charged £40 for a small table, and had sold hardly anything, why? because the number of buyers was down. Some of the punters I spoke to the year before last had said to me "why should I spend money in transportation to a convention, and then when I get there I have to pay £4+ per head entrance fee just for the privalege of spending money inside on the tables".

If organizers of these conventions started to see sence, and reduce the charge of tables for sellers, they would see a few more sellers turning up, and if the entry charge was reduced, they would see more suport from more buyers turning up.

Yes, Ebay is as you have said, is very succesful, why? becuase it atracts both sellers and buyers at cheap rates, and buyers know they could get a bargin with minimum lay-out to themselves.

It is a double standard to say that Ebay is resposable partly or wholy for the lack of suport for Collector Conventions when I have seen Covention organizers themselves selling and buying to resell the item they have won on ebay.

I also know the other side of the argument, "it cost money to hire a venue". Yes, that is also a fact. If the argument is that the charges made to both sellers and punters entrance fees are high, so as to cover the cost of the hire of the venue or room, then it is time to find different venues with lower rents such as church or village halls, then both the price of tables and entry fees can be reduced, and more people will suport these events.

As far as organizers are concerned, there are other ways of raising funds inside the venue which will help toward the cost of hiring the venue.

In closing, a lot of work, time and effort is put in by organizers of large conventions, why waste it all by over-charging.

Thats my 2 pence worth.

Ian.

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 23, 2006 12:35 PM

Ian - I think you've made some valid points. I know the attendance was not good last year, perhaps mainly due to the mistake of holding the event on Mother's Day. To give it a boost, it might have been a good idea to acknowldge that dealers had a bad day last time and offer them tables at half price this year.

No doubt it's also a pain from Derann's point of view that the people that organise the March Blackpool event are still doing so, but at least the timing would have been less close to Birmingham this year.

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Adrian Winchester

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 24, 2006 03:53 AM

Ian, there is little to no money to be made from running a convention. You'll be surprised how much it costs to hire a venue within greater London.

Thanks for your post, it gives me a better understanding of why some collectors slag us off when all we're trying to do is promote the hobby and give fellow film collectors a good day out for their money. I thought £5 was damned good value. I pay a lot more than that myself - it's a rare occasion (like never) that I don't find myself out of pocket from one of these events. Makes me wonder why I bother.

And thanks to all those who have let me know that the anti-8mm forum have been slagging my initial post off. Personally I'll miss the odd new release when there are no longer Super 8 prints being struck so as far as I'm concerned the longer the hobby survives the better. And to help it survive we need good conventions or events of some sort and possibly a quality magazine. I think it's naive to think the web is enough on its own.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003

posted February 24, 2006 04:28 AM

You bother, John, because most people have a great time at the conventions, thoroughly enjoy the day and totally appreciate all the hard work that goes into it.

See you in May.

[ February 24, 2006, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: Rob Young. ]

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Rob Koeling
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Brighton, UK
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 24, 2006 06:56 AM

Absolutely Rob, the conventions are great fun! I do buy a lot from the web, but I have to admit that I prefer to have the print in my hands before buying it. Most of the time I know what I'm looking for, and don't buy something because it might be ok. There is so much stuff available online, that you can almost always find something that you realy want. That is not always the case at conventions. But having said that, I think that every single time I visited Ealing I found something that I was really pleased with. Last year I had a table (with Mike). Selling some stuff to make some space (and to justify new acquisitions) is only part of the fun. I never talked to so many people as that time. I am definitely up for that again. For me the biggest problem of having a table is that you have to be so organised in the weeks running up to the convention (sorting out stuff and pricing it; and then decide that you don't really want to part with it....).

I understand John's frustration very well. I was involved with organising a film society for some 10 years. I easily put in 10 hours a week. I spent money on many things when there wasn't any money any more to buy the most essential things. You do it because, well, I suppose because you're mad... Or to put a more positive spin to it, because you're mad about something (film in this case) and you want to enjoy it, share it, create a platform for it and support it. I always thought it was very enjoyable most of the time. And it is very necessary to get feedback from people who appreciate your efforts every now and then. But, it also often seemed to be the case that the voices of the complainers were louder than from the people who appreciate it. That is often very tiring and sometimes very discouraging. During those 10 years I had a few moments that I thought 'why do I bother', but then a bit of support from people who apppreciate it (plus a few good films and a lot of booze with these people), a good night of sleep and a few cups of strong coffee to battle the hangover, normally took care of any urge to wrap it all up. And as a matter of fact, I've been looking around lately, to see if I could start something similar around here. I mis it now!

I always thought that feedback (positive AND negative) is important. But _please_ in a constructive way. People have to understand that you can't make everybody happy ALL of the time. When you organise something big like that, you try to make most of the people happy most of the time. As far as Ealing goes, I've never been disappointed. I would love to go to other conventions too, but time constraints make it a bit difficult at the moment. But I'm sure they are just as much fun!

Please help the organisers to make the conventions even better by giving them good constructive feedback and suggestions. No whining please, that doesn't do any good for anyone.

Keep up the good work John (and all the other organisers of Ealing and all other conventions). Your work is very much appreciated by so many of us. I'm looking forward to May!

- Rob

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 25, 2006 06:26 AM

"And thanks to all those who have let me know that the anti-8mm forum have been slagging my initial post off."

I find it amazing that there are people - presumably ex-8mm collectors - who can't find better things to do than 'lurk' on this forum, and then copy a post from here elsewhere, in order to encourage ridicule. How sad is that! [Roll Eyes]

I certainly don't agree with everything I read here, but I hope we can disagree and have 'vigorous debate' without resorting to that sort of activity. I suppose it's a compliment to this site that even ex-collectors can't tear themselves away from it! [Big Grin]

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Adrian Winchester

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 25, 2006 07:59 AM

Adrian

Agreed. I just don't understand why it is that there is such a strong feeling that ex collectors find it necessary to constantly to justify their decision to abandon film in favour of DVD. Perhaps it is just me? What's their problem? Does this sort of thing happen with other media like LP vs CD vs Mp3 etc.

If they don't want to go to the conventions that's fine but why slag them off?

Personally I think they are all very sad sad people. [Frown]

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Tony

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4837
From: Plymouth U.K
Registered: Dec 2003

posted February 25, 2006 09:31 AM

I think JC's correct in what he syas, e-bay does have a lot to answer for, hoewver, it is in all of our nature to get what we can for our films if scilly low prices is all we can get,

This may sound very very negative but i do believe we are seeing a serious decline in 8mm, it is inevitable, but i know it will be around for a long time and as Derann have said every year, it will be around for as long as us the collector continues to purchase and support the dealers,

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

posted February 25, 2006 09:39 AM

I think I can understand it( RE EX Collectors) fairly well. Its probably from a build up over time when in the hobby and you were often shafted so to speak or very dissapointed. I was badly stung again not so long ago on a 16mm print from the USA, supposedly A1 and a bloody shambles with all that post lost too.
Its happened to all of us, the more unlucky like myself many times, Vinegar, scracthes segments missing you name it etc and that can still wrankle a long thime after, especially when you know the person obviously knew excactly what they were doing to you.
So I think thats why. With DVD and new LCD projectors etc etc you have proper gaurantees that are properly backed up with aplogies if theres a problem rather than the opposite etc so getting away from cine can be a relief in many ways.
Speaking for myself I still love it to bits and I now try not to buy outside of the really decent types like Paul F etc and you are usually OK as they do their best.
So I can see why the new doings now seem like the promised land so to speak and the quality now is incredible but the fiddling and fun as we know is not really there and its that and finding those bits and bobs that makes this hobby what it is, but its still peppered with rotten swines that don`t help it hang on in there.
I think super 8 will keep going OK at a certain level and its funny how it comes and goes and many prople get back into it as they miss the fun of cine if they leave, its really down to the person.
Myself I find cine helps me focus away from the brutalities of life etc and my own struggles and I guess thats probaly what a hobby is all about.
Your right Tom there is a down shift but if the dealers etc can keep a margin in there even at lower prices and hang on in there its here for a good while longer. We addicts need it.
Best Mark.

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 25, 2006 10:21 AM

Although I find the ex-collector rants depressing, I find the psychology behind them interesting. As Tony says, it seems to be something that happens with regard to film, although the 'knockers' may just as well pick on vinyl collectors, people that own vintage cars or anyone that enjoys hobbies which are not 'cutting edge' technology. I'm supplying an article for the next FFTC which will put forward some theories with regard to what's happening in the minds of ex-collectors, and I'll keep Mark's points in mind.

One of the ways in which I feel they are seriously misguided is their obsession with 'them and us' thinking, when the fact is that virtually all 8mm collectors own DVD players, and a substantial proportion are keen VP users. If the moaners had actually come to Blackpool, they would have seen all types of collectors interacting without any need for the sort of sarcasm that they seem to enjoy.

I agree that we have obviously seen a decline in 8mm collecting but I get the impression that it has stabilised. There seems to be more releases than about 3-4 years ago and attendances at the latest Blackpool and Ealing events were good. Let's face it, people have been claiming that 8mm is on its last legs for years, and maybe part of the fun is proving them wrong!

As for eBay, it's a complex issue and I'm not sure about it being a bad thing overall. You can get good money sometimes (like the 50' Smash Robots ad reel that went for over £70 recently) but a lot of routine titles sell for low prices, if at all. Overall, I can't really complain about it as it has enabled me to get some great features on 16mm that would have been almost impossible to find in the pre-eBay days.

[ February 25, 2006, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Adrian Winchester ]

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Adrian Winchester

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 25, 2006 11:07 AM

Adrian,

I would be very very careful buying anything off ebay unless I knew the seller. If I do buy (as indeed just redcently) I know I am taking a total gamble and could lose my money on poor film.

If I am spending serious cash I am heading for the dealers because I know (as indeed has ben proven) that they won't leg me over.

But sometimes a film crops up on ebay that may not be on a dealers list so what am I to do?

I agree with most of what has been said Mark, I have no problem with the opinions that people on the Sylvester forum have but I just find it sad to think they somehow want to take great pleasure in proving they made the right choice. Of course they are right and for the last 4 or so years that I have been playing with cine I have heard the same message. BUT it is my choice to continue. I am a big boy and can make my own choices as to how I throw away my own money. I am not investing in s8 and 16mm. I am not looking to turn a profit. Nor am I expecting anything at the end of it all. Some people collect thousands of DVD's and can't possibly watch them all more than once but that is there choice. At least with Film I can't really afford to do that!

Ah well.

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Tony

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

posted February 25, 2006 11:17 AM

Hi Tony you could always flog me pardon us to buy some Dvds, or even a film,
Best Mark.

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 25, 2006 11:21 AM

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

posted February 25, 2006 11:47 AM

I`m seeing double, or is it just the filmrenew fumes!!!!!

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 25, 2006 12:12 PM

Tony said: "I have no problem with the opinions that people on the Sylvester forum have but I just find it sad to think they somehow want to take great pleasure in proving they made the right choice. Of course they are right..."

They are obviously right in terms of the mass market, the availability of features, price, etc. But I think the fundamental question is: are THEY really sure that they made the right choice, not in embracing DVD projection, but in selling off their films. If they are genuinely enjoying themselves more as a result, why can't they just 'move on' and stop talking about 8mm!

As for buying on eBay, I've been reasonably lucky, but I sympathise as I have on-going problems with a couple of people (long story). I can only recommend checking the return policy of sellers you don't know, and not just checking feedback but seeing if the feedback relates to film sales. I'd be very wary of anyone with feedback below 99%. Also, people sometimes use the 16mm Forum to see if other collectors will recommend particular sellers. Finally, if someone does not offer a fair deal, perhaps we should expose them here and/or the 16mm Forum.

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Adrian Winchester

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003

posted February 25, 2006 02:29 PM

Saying that I have 99% because I was ripped off to the tune of £100 a little over a year ago and left a neg to try to protect others. I of course recieved a fibbing neg as a result but what can you do.
Best Mark.

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 25, 2006 04:38 PM

All credit to you for doing the right thing. Hopefully most eBayers realise that this can happen to anyone.

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Adrian Winchester

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Mike Peckham
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1461
From: West Sussex, UK.
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 26, 2006 07:19 PM

Here we go again, just had a quick look at the ´Grumpy Old Mens Forum´to see what it´s all about and see that it´s much the same old whinging again. Why do they do it? Didn´t read the posts right through though as they were too long and rambling which I suppose is indicative of their need to try and justify their continued negativity.

Still don´t understand it though, I have total respect and empathy for people who want to project DVD and feel no need to take time out to run them down. I guess they must just feel they´re missing out on something and need to express their bitterness about it at every oportunity, a bit like being back in the playground.

Good to know though that the guys on this forum can rise above all that silliness and continue to enjoy their interests and let others get on with theirs.

Mike

ps. very much looking forward to being at the October BFCC and catching up with everyone.

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Auntie Em must have stopped wondering where I am by now...

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Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted February 26, 2006 08:17 PM

"... I guess they must just feel they´re missing out on something and need to express their bitterness about it at every oportunity, a bit like being back in the playground."

Mike - that's pretty much in line with my theories on this. I think that members of this forum need to accept that this is OUR FAULT, as we are being outrageously provocative by buying new 8mm releases and going to conventions. If we didn't and it all came to an end, we might spare them this trauma, as there would be less evidence that they are missing out on anything. And if we had any compassion at all, we would insist that all the conventions are turned into DVD and digital projection fairs, so that they can enjoy days out with like-minded people once again. [Wink]

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Adrian Winchester

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