8mm Forum: Any significant changes on 8mm print quality from 80s to date?

»	8mm Forum » 8mm Forum » Any significant changes on 8mm print quality from 80s to date?

UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!

Author

Topic: Any significant changes on 8mm print quality from 80s to date?

Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted March 23, 2008 08:02 AM

Hi all,

Do you think any significant changes between 8mm print quality struck in 1980s with those printed recently by Derann or CHC?

The comparasion must between orange vs orange

So I am asking those copies printed on LPP (1980s) vs LPP (2000s).

And there is no digitally remastered on the negative for the later copies.

Can you tell me if any?

thanks,

--------------------
Winbert

| IP: Logged

Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted March 23, 2008 01:14 PM

I think it really depends on the negative that was used, as I have seen extremely sharp prints from around the 1980's (the optical sound features, for instance, or the excellent Derann features), and then there have been OK prints at later dates.

But when you look at the prints of those Derann Disney's, it's hard to NOT argue that they are better. I do think that there must be an inprovement in quality, as the earlier super 8's would not stand up to comparisons with 16MM, and yet many of the prints coming out these days are definitely up to and beyond 16MM, (like that Carrotblanca cartoon I reviewed.)

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

| IP: Logged

John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted March 23, 2008 09:41 PM

If anything the quality may have gone down. Since all the printers were made 20 to 30 years ago and rely on optics and alignment of that period and the total lack of parts means it's difficult to maintain quality.

A friend of mine sold a continout optical reduction printer a few years back to a major US lab that had a contract to make strips of super 8 for MacDonald's promotion. All the stock was special order and the printer was 25 years old (there aren't many sources for these things) and the gentleman he got to go through the machine was a mechanic for a major hollywood lab and retired/laid off for several years.

Most all these printers use a 16mm negative and reduction print onto the positive stock either two up side by side on 16mm or four up side by side on 35mm.

Optical sound prints require another pass for the sound track, magnetic prints were prestriped and recorded at high speed four across, now I'm guessing they're stripped and recorded one by one in real time.

This would provide better QC on sound if the track material can be maintained on the small batches that are produced now.

As for the film stock and processing, super8 pushes the materials to their very limit and with small runs I don't know if the tight QC on printer weave and slippage is the same as it was.

John

| IP: Logged

John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted March 24, 2008 08:10 AM

Film Labs North are still producing top notch prints. The German sourced material is not quite up to the top standard obtained from the British prints but that is most likely down to the acetate stock they use - they do however still come up with the occasional gem ('Spider-Man' being a prime example).

Whereas I doubt Film Labs North would ever be able to match the best quality obtained during the early 90's (when the best prints ever were produced) if they still had access to pristine negatives for new releases they'd get pretty close.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

| IP: Logged

Graham Sinden
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1131
From: Kent, UK
Registered: Aug 2005

posted March 24, 2008 04:37 PM

One part that has changed is that the new prints today do have a blue look on them. Im not sure if this is just down to Fuji or Agfa stock being used, or if all the low fade stocks now are blue. But Im not complaining as Im glad that super 8 is still printed today.

Graham S

| IP: Logged

Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted March 24, 2008 05:18 PM

Graham,
I've noticed that a lot of 35mm films shown in theaters have a bluish look also.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

| IP: Logged

Graham Sinden
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1131
From: Kent, UK
Registered: Aug 2005

posted March 24, 2008 05:41 PM

There is a case that says we can change the look of any print slightly by using filters. I used to often read in magazines that pink prints can be improved by using yellow/green filters but I have never tried it successfully myself. I once did buy a slight yellow filter from a camera shop for about £10 but that did nothing to my prints and it would be too expensive to buy a range of filters just to find that 'one' that worked so I gave up on this idea.

Has anyone else had any sucess from filters on pink or blue prints?

But also where does the blue come from and is there a reason for it?

| IP: Logged

John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted March 24, 2008 06:09 PM

I think the blue comes from the color timing and is intensional. Tastes change over the years and cooler looking prints are now the "in" thing.

Using filters usually is a diaappointment. A filter removes part of the spectrum from the projector lamp which means that white will now have the overall "cast" of the filter and the light output will be reduced.

Even if you could reduce the red spectrum to compensate for a cyan dye fade the picture would be very dim and the entire picture would have a cyan cast.

It's possible to do some repair digitally since you can maintain both a white and black balance and adjust the gamma of the missing or faded dye. However you usually get way too much noise in the channel trying to ramp it up.

Kodak had an elaborate process of masking to make dupe transparancies of faded Ektachrome slides. If the fading wasn't bad you could build up a mask and make several intermediate passes to build up the faded layer.

It worked well with minor fading, was very expensive and thus relegated to valuable originals which couldn't be replaced.

Someone was awarded a US patent for restoring faded prints that used a special chemical vapor/light process.

When you examine chemically what happens when the dye fades, it doesn't go away but instead loses it's color and turns clear. The theory would be to find a chemical that would reactive the dye and restore it to it's original form. That was the idea behind the patent, but since it was never licensed or produced I wonder if it ever worked.

John

| IP: Logged

Adrian Winchester
Film God

Posts: 2941
From: Croydon, London, UK
Registered: Aug 2004

posted March 24, 2008 06:15 PM

I'd generally say/agree that the great era for Super 8 prints was from around the mid 80s to around the end of the 90s, whilst acknowledging that there have also been some superb prints before and after this period. I also agree with John that quality control is liable to slip at times when distributors have less importance in terms of the business that they offer labs. There was even a time after the revival when Derann prints NEVER had lab splices! Although, some labs have always tended to be inconsistent - e.g. I gave up trying to buy 'Silence of the Lambs' when it was released as I had 2 or 3 prints that had wet gate streaks in different places.

One strange thing I regret nowadays is that you never seem to see really bright reds. Phil S once told me that the German lab can't seem to overcome this for some reason. But nowadays, it also seems to apply to Derann prints - look out for something that should be bright red (eg a Kit Kat wrapper on a recent ad reel) and it's always closer to orange. What has happened to red???

--------------------
Adrian Winchester

| IP: Logged

Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: Mountian Home, ID.
Registered: Jul 2005

posted March 24, 2008 07:22 PM

I agree about the bluish cast; it is a thing with modern directors that I first noticed starting to pop up on such films as "Dark City" "Saving Private Ryan" and very noticeably on "Minority report". With the success of those film, other people have highly copycated the "look".

I would be curious if the prints of films earlier than the last fifteen years, (Derann's classics, for instance) also have that "bluish" cast? If they do, then it is definitely either the chemiclas used or the film stock itself. I haven't seen Agfa from the past, (early 80's for instance), that had a "bluish" cast.

I will say that I have noticed that earlier Derann prints on Eastman L.P.P. (not agfa) tend to have a "bluish" cast. I had a thirty minute version of "Where Eagles Dare" that had a slightly bluish cast, as well as my print of "Neverending Story".

Interesting series of posts!

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

| IP: Logged

Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted March 25, 2008 01:02 AM

Hi guys, thanks for the input.

I am posting this message based on the fact that movie buffs collecting moives in other format (start from Tape to VHS/Beta to CED to LD to DVD) will have to buy the newer format becuase they were attracted with better picture (resolution).

While in the 8mm case, the resolution does not change (doesn't it?) but the most important is lab/print quality.

I am still not clear so please enlighten me:

Take this ceteris paribus (everything is in the same condition) if there is an old negative (which has been used in the 80s) found and printed by Derann on today's stock, will the result be the same or better compared to the 80s print?

ps: in a different case, I would say if there is an old master tape which has been used to stamp vinyls in 1970s, if it is used again now on today's vinyl, it will create exactly the same sound quality (as long as it is not an audiophile vinyl eg. 180 or 200 grams)

cheers,

--------------------
Winbert

| IP: Logged

John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted March 25, 2008 03:18 AM

Film stocks improved significantly with the introduction of Kodak's T stocks in the early 80's I believe. Other film manufacturers then had to catch up to remain competitive. Super 8 obviously benefitted from the improvements and was a major contributing factor to the significant print quality improvements we have enjoyed to this day.

With regards to the blue tints experienced this was particularly noticeable on the Agfa stock used until the recent switch back to the new Kodak stock. Agfa had a blue tint whereas the new Kodak tends more towards the green.

I haven't noticed the lack of vibrant reds so I'll keep an eye on this with any new releases up for review. Particularly on Kit-Kat adverts!!!

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

| IP: Logged

David Pannell
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1072
From: Horsham, West Sussex, UK
Registered: Nov 2004

posted March 25, 2008 03:46 AM

I would just like to echo John's point about using filters being a disappointment.

As I shoot both cine and take slides, in colour and monochrome, I already have a large selection of filters.

I tried out a whole range of colours in an attempt to 'rectify' the pink/red tinge on a couple of films that I have in my collection.

Conclusion:- A total and utter waste of time. Results were exactly as John says. My advice to anyone considering purchasing a filter for this purpose, is - don't bother!

--------------------
Dave.

Valves and celluloid - a great combination!
Early technology rules OK!

| IP: Logged

All times are Central

Printer-friendly view of this topic

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2