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Author
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Topic: New guy, with unusual use for super 8 tech
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Bobby Nansel
Junior
Posts: 11
From: Australia
Registered: Dec 2011
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posted December 26, 2011 02:09 AM
I'm a student sculptor, and I've been researching the super 8 world for a few weeks. I want to do a series of sculptures that incorporate s8 projection (viz, back projection of a face onto a translucent mask). I think I've finally read enough to at least dimly perceived the outlines of my ignorance ... so now I can start asking questions, right?
OK. I found an Elmo K-100sm (literally) on the walkway about a year ago, and I brought it home thinking I would use it for parts for some undefined future sculpture project. Whether I use it on this Talking Head project remains to be seen. It needs a globe and belts, but it seems to be intact and things whir when it's powered up.
I've also in the last few days acquired a Noris 6000s camera and a 3-S Sound Striper from Sound Striping Services. And I've got some other goodies on the way via ebay.
First set of questions: Most of the eyecup of the Noris was liquified like tar. I've removed all the gunk, but now I need a replacement eyecup. Are there any eyecups--preferably made of a more durable polymer!--still made that are similar enough to be adapted? Or do I need to cannibalise from another camera? I understand the camera was made by Chinon, but what model(s) should I look for to find replacement parts?
Second set of questions: For my Talking Head sculptures I plan to explore a variety of ways to project live action and animation footage onto/into masks or sculpted heads. Other than the obvious full-face back or front projection approaches, I'd also like to try projecting fragments of a face using multiple projectors. What I have in mind here is using, say, three projectors, one for each eye and one for the rest of the face. The reason I want to do that is so I can control each projector separately to achieve the effect of the eyes tracking the person viewing the sculpture. I'd be using something like a webcam with face recognition software to provide the direction inputs to the eye projectors.
Now, since the projected eyes are to be roughly life-size with the eyes filling their respective frames, I don't need nearly as much light as a regular projector. In fact, I'm hoping to cobble together a system using a few modified editor/viewers, or perhaps something alongs the lines of these handheld fim viewers. Anybody know anything about these? I 'spose these are pretty flimsy, but I might be able to use their basic design as a point of departure to fabricate my own. Unless somebody has a better idea.
That's all for now. Lots of details to work out over the next several months, but that's why the class I'm doing this for is called Research. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I'd appreciate any help y'all can give me.
-Bobby
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My second childhood is much more fun; I have money with no strict bedtime!
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Claus Harding
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1149
From: Washington DC
Registered: Oct 2006
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posted December 28, 2011 03:43 PM
Hi Bobby,
Your requirements aren't exactly easy...
It would be one thing to make something where the light sources actually could fit within this small space, but you have to remember the film reels and some ventilation...the space is just too small unless you really get into customizing.
The transports and lightsources (and VENTILATION) would have to be behind the openings of course, with custom film arms mounted down in the torso so there is space for the reels.
The films, theoretically, would travel up from the torso, using guiderollers, make a u-turn up in the head and go back to the takeup reels in the torso (this easily qualifies as one of the strangest paragraphs I have ever written ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
It goes without saying that this option comes with a hell of a lot of work without any guarantee of it even working.
You would have small reel capacity, so short runs only, and the sculpture would need a door in the back to reload the film
Alternative: if the sculptured head sat against a black backdrop with holes in the back of the head and the curtain, you could conceivably place three projectors in an array behind the curtain, one for each eye/mouth opening.
In either case, I do believe the face transparency would have to be shot onto the sculpture from the front as there would be no clear shot of the whole head from the rear with the gear in place.
The one thing I don't get is the directionality idea. I know of it in video, but how you would get pre-shot FILM of the eyes to respond in real-time, let alone the idea of the interface "directing" the projector??? You are talking interactive video kiosk stuff here, not Super-8.
In this case I do believe video is the way to go. Small LCD screens for each eye and the mouth, with the footage shot to correct scale for the screens and the cutouts in the head. They can be fed individually from 3 harddrives, and the sculpture now can stand freely away from the wall.
Some ideas....good luck,
Claus.
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"Why are there shots of deserts in a scene that's supposed to take place in Belgium during the winter?" (Review of 'Battle of the Bulge'.)
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Bobby Nansel
Junior
Posts: 11
From: Australia
Registered: Dec 2011
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posted December 28, 2011 07:43 PM
quote:
Hi Bobby,
Your requirements aren't exactly easy...
It would be one thing to make something where the light sources actually could fit within this small space, but you have to remember the film reels and some ventilation...the space is just too small unless you really get into customizing.
I reckon this project is going to be all about customisation I do have machining facilities, and I am actually a (recovering) engineer. Be afraid ...
quote:
The transports and lightsources (and VENTILATION) would have to be behind the openings of course, with custom film arms mounted down in the torso so there is space for the reels.
I hadn't thought about ventilation. Perhaps if I use bright white LED illumination -- much less heat involved. Has anyone experience using LED illumination for viewers?
quote:
The films, theoretically, would travel up from the torso, using guiderollers, make a u-turn up in the head and go back to the takeup reels in the torso (this easily qualifies as one of the strangest paragraphs I have ever written )
I'm supposing the film would be in smallish loops just a few seconds worth. I haven't worked out exactly how to access the individual eye movements, but I thought it might be something along the lines of half the loop is look-to-the-right, and the other half look-to-the-left, both with a bit of blinking at the end/beginning to cover the splice(s). The control system would run the film forward or backward a set number of frames each time. This should be fairly easy on the electronics side since all I have to do is use the perforations to produce index pulses for position feedback.
Of course, I may be underestimating how much space I'll need for the micro-projectors. Still, if I'm dealing with loops of film, say, 12 inches long, they would fit in a 4-inch circle.
Hmm ... on further reflection, I wonder if I could dispense with loops altogether? Maybe put individual frames in a disk arrangement (like the old View-Masters) and drive the disk with a stepper motor or a high-speed servo. The film advance mechanism of the viewer/projector would then not be used at all, just the condenser and projection lenses. This would make it much easier to do tricks such as skipping segments of frames to access the desired frames, sort of like a hard drive, but with only one track. At 18 fps if the servo system could skip over some multiple of, say, 8 frames in 1/18 of a second then, as long as the 9th frame is accurately registered you theoretically wouldn't even notice the jump. That way I could have "virtual loops" of look-left, look-right, look-up, look-down, and look-straight, and blink.
The term "dwell time" is nagging at me, though. How much time is actually available for film transport at 18 fps? 1/18 sec less the dwell time, whatever that ought to be. Anyone know? A quick google hasn't revealed a number, yet.
-Bobby
[ December 29, 2011, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Bobby Nansel ]
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My second childhood is much more fun; I have money with no strict bedtime!
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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008
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posted December 30, 2011 09:12 AM
Naughty, Frank!
Bobby,
I think you have hit the nail slightly off the head when you mention "customisation"; for your problem I think you may be "starting from scratch" rather than "customising".
Claus had a pretty good go at both analysing your problem and drawing your attentions to the difficulties of using a medium such as 8 mm film.
The film medium and its technology has been around for over 100 years, and there is e wealth of engineering out there. Unfortunately, this Forum has some VERY experienced, hobbyists, collectors and repairers of vintage Film orientated equipment, with a VERY wide knowledge of what has gone before, what the consumer has wanted in the past... and what is really practicable based on the foregoing technology.
You came to the right place, even if your hopes for an easy solution are not forthcoming. BUT, because the crazy "manufacturer led" consumer "demand" dictates what we, as obedient sheep, buy today simply because it is there, although we had no idea we needed it (see "mobile phones"), your solution may lie more in the direction of the modern equivalent of the 8 mm projector... Video.
VERY small LED illumination projectors are available these days, which should have adequate resolution for your application, as well as being easier to work with the visuals you require. You may have to use a mirror or two, but the visual content requires only easily concealed wires to reach the point of use.you could play endlessly with the Visuals without having to worry about processing film to see what you had achieved.
Art is , I believe, all about what you present as well as the use of "smoke and mirrors" in the presentation... or did I get that wrong?
Martin
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Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....
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Bobby Nansel
Junior
Posts: 11
From: Australia
Registered: Dec 2011
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posted December 30, 2011 10:18 AM
Yes, it will involve much more than customisation, but it's not quite starting from scratch. I really would like to do this with film. Not that I can't handle video technology; it's just that it bores me.
A hundred years ago they didn't have electronic sensors and microcontrollers to do the sorts of things I'm contemplating. The disk idea doesn't seem to have any insurmountable difficulties, as long as the inertia of the disk is kept small. If there were 80 frames around the perimeter of the disk, then I would have room for maybe eight loops of ten frames each.
In one version the disk would have to start and stop 18 times a second to pick out each frame -- doable with a low-inertia disk and dc servo motor, but probably a bit noisy, somewhat along the lines of a daisy wheel printer (remember those?). Another version would simply rotate the disk to the desired frame sequence then step through all the frames in 1/18 sec increments. This wouldn't be quite as noisy because the accelerations wouldn't be as severe, but there would be longer average delays when switching between loops.
A third version, the one I am favouring at the moment, would use continuous rotation for the disk, but with +- variation in speed to "phase" the correct frame loop into position. The loops would not be consecutive frames in this case; rather they would be interleaved. A rotary prism would thus be required to project the moving frames onto a "stationary" image. It wouldn't be perfectly stationary, and there would be distortion at the edges of the frame, but editor/viewer machines already use this technique instead of intermittent motion of the film, so the basic principle is sound. Given the postage stamp size of the images I'd be projecting, the image hopping and distortion shouldn't be too much trouble.
-B
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My second childhood is much more fun; I have money with no strict bedtime!
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