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Topic: Better and lesser lenses?

Osi Osgood
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From: Mountian Home, ID.
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posted April 11, 2014 11:57 AM

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I actually have the chance to make a post today, a few minutes so I won't waste too much time ...

This may sound like an assinine statement from one so "seasoned" concerning film, but are some lenses for super 8 (or otherwise) better at projecting a sharp image and, if so, which would be the best?

I ask as I was perusing a 16MM of Grizzly (which I sadly have to send back, magnificent color, terrible scratching and more splices than can be counted), and I noticed that the actual film image is much sharper than the screenshot. Granted, not all screenshots are equal, but it is a curiosity.

So ...

1. Which projectors come with the best lenses for projection?

2. Which lense is the absolute best for a great sharp projection and can be bought apart from a projector and inserted into your existing projector? I know there are a lot of different lense fittings for assorted projectors.

OSI

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Paul Adsett
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posted April 11, 2014 05:58 PM

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The Elmo F1.0 lens is at the top of the list for a zoom lens.
The Kodak Ektar f1.0 22mm FIXED FOCAL LENGTH NON ZOOM is the best lens of any kind that I have ever used on a super 8 projector, beating out the Elmo f1.0 for sharpness and contrast.
I know there are other great lenses out there, but these two are the two best lenses that I have ever used.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Maurizio Di Cintio
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posted April 12, 2014 09:29 AM

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Hi, I also like the Schneider 1.1 in its various declinations and the Sankyo Hi-Pro 1.0 Zoom Lens.

I'd put the Eumig Suprogon 1.2 in a somewhat lesser category, albeit still very good to me.

Presently a friend of mine is waiting for a Fujinon 1.0: I'm thinking of comparing this lens mounted on a Fujicascope SH 30 with the Sankyo 1.0 - I am very curious...

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Maurizio

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Paul Adsett
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posted April 12, 2014 03:39 PM

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So far nobody has mentioned the really bad lenses. I guess there are so many that its pointless to talk about them! [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Maurizio Di Cintio
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posted April 12, 2014 04:56 PM

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Well I'll can add a few words here. IMHO one of the greatest disappointments is the Eumig Optical Level System: it's relatively fast and really versatile lens thanks to its front element shifting system which enables you to lift the projected image without tilting the whole projector (no keystone correction required, many years before VPRs), but it's one of the softest lenses I have ever used; not really a design flaw, I guess, since I came by more than one unit and some of them were better than others so probably it's just a matter of production quality consistency. Nonetheless a major disappointment on a well-ranked machine like the Model 938 which indeed I prefer to employ using a Schneider 1.1. It's the only way to make justice to this model...

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Maurizio

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Paul Adsett
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posted April 12, 2014 07:20 PM

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Toatally agree with you Maurizio. The Eumig optical levelling lens was a very clever idea, and you kind of miss it on all the other projectors that don't have it, because you can 'dial in' a perfect fit to the screen almost instantaneously. But, just like you, I found that lens too soft and too low in contrast, although it does a pretty good job on smallish screens. But as you say, the Eumig 938 only shows its true colors with a great quality lens. I always use my 22mm fixed focus Kodak Ektar with my 938 and, along with that machines superb sound system, the film impact is awesome.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Maurizio Di Cintio
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posted April 13, 2014 02:30 AM

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Oh, yes, Paul I was forgetting your Ektar 22... How silly of me [Big Grin]

[Big Grin]

I don't know what I'd give out to see an Ektar in action. I've never seen one... I guess it has a different barrel than Eumig's, did you build an adapter sleeve?

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Maurizio

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Alan Rik
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posted April 13, 2014 09:09 AM

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I concur with Paul. I have the 1.0 and its the best lens out there for the GS made for the GS but the Ektar lens is something special. I used it when I had a Eumig and also I can use it with my Beaulieu. Its so sharp it looks like the film grain is shimmering.
You do not need a sleeve but you have to have a machine shop slim down the barrel a bit for it to fit properly. Best lens I have used for sure and the only limitation is that since its 22mm you need some distance to get a large picture.

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Paul Adsett
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posted April 13, 2014 09:57 AM

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Maurizio, as Alan says the Ektar needs modification for use on Eumig projectors. Specifically the outside diameter of the lens barrel needs to be machined down from 36mm to 32mm. This is a delicate operation because you dont want to clamp the lens too tightly in the lathe collet as it might crack the lenses, so you need to go to a qualified machine shop to get it done.

So the Ektar, when modified, works great in all the Eumig projectors, and literally transforms the screen image on my 938. I can only imagine how great it works on Alan's Beaulieu with that rear sprung gate and precision lens mount.
However I have had no real success in using the Ektar on my GS1200, much as I would like to. The problem is that the back focal length of the Ektar is extremely small, it almost sits on the film, and you just cannot get the lens close enough to the film plane on the GS1200 without making undesirable modifications to the gate springs.
Here is the Ektar mounted on my 938 along with the Isco scope lens. A very happy combination [Smile]

[Smile]

:

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Andrew Woodcock
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posted April 13, 2014 12:09 PM

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Lovely set up Paul. I too have one of these very nice machines but only have the original lens for it and for me, using the original lens,for a 150w lamp, this machine produces the most dim picture I have ever seen using the excellent xenophot lamp.

I hope the image brightness is much improved by getting round the optical levelling system which uses far too many planes of glass to ever produce a really bright picture.

To me, it has the same effect as placing an anamorphic in front of the main lens permanently in the way it effects the brightness of the image and the only machine I have that can truly carry an anamorphic without effecting the overall brightness to an annoying level is my Beaulieu.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Adsett
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posted April 13, 2014 01:55 PM

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Andrew, one thing I found on my 938 was that the lamp was only getting 14.2 volts when it should be 15 volts! So, I set the the transformer tapping down to 110 volts, instead of our normal 117 volts here in the USA, and the lamp voltage went up to 15.0 where it should be. The increase in screen brightness and whiteness was impressive. I have been running my 938 like this for many years with no adverse effects of any kind. I would much rather have a brighter picture than maximizing lamp life by underunning it, as Eumig seem to have done.
I agree with you about anamorphic lenses, and even the best ones diminish picture brightness, sharpness, and contrast. But of course there is no way around lower brightness as you are usually illuminating a much bigger screen size. For this reason, I do not have a whole lot of scope prints. I am sure if I had John Clancy's HTI GS1200 I would feel differently.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Andrew Woodcock
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posted April 13, 2014 02:20 PM

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Some great points there Paul and I shall check out my own lamp terminal voltage when I next use the machine. I am glad you have used it for a good while in this manner or else I would be in fear of doing so in case too much voltage was being applied elsewhere which may damage some of the other electronic circuits.

Clearly this is not the case as you have been successfully using yours in this manner for some time it would seem.

I am surprised you are perhaps not 100% happy screening scope films especially on a GS1200 as I would have thought the 200w lamp would still produce a lovely bright picture with the decent F1.1 lens. Having never owned one I wouldn't know but the Beaulieu is fine up to a screen width of around 10ft and is about as bright as a GS1200 due to the 2 blade shutter and fast frame pull down mechanism.

Admittedly still not quite as razor sharp an image as without though no matter how good the anamorphic, as I have a Kowa and even a pro Schneider scope cinema lens but still sharper just using the projector lens only.

I am certain I would be in absolute awe of the Beaulieu HTI brightness levels which are apparently, second to none, but not perhaps at the expense of it sounding like a jet engine in my living room! It's all a trade off and the best brightness to noise level I have ever witnessed is my Panasonic Video PJ at 2000 lumens and only 24dba on economy setting!

I can live with the noise levels from my standard Beaulieu though as it really does run quite quietly, just not AS quiet as the Bauer, but then again I don't think any Super 8 PJ does!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Paul Adsett
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posted April 13, 2014 02:43 PM

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I will say that I am much happier screening scope prints now that I have switched to the Fuji ESC lamp on the GS1200. I have a superb scope print of Grease and it does look very good on a 9ft wide screen. One thing that I dont like about super 8 scope is the extreme aspect ratio. I'm not sure what it is but it has to be a lot higher than the normal 2.35 or 2.55. This seems to result in peoples heads beeing cut off in some S8 scope prints that I have seen. IMO scope prints on S8 should have been printed to include the full height of the 35 mm frame, even if this resulted in some letterboxing of the S8 print.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Andrew Woodcock
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posted April 13, 2014 03:18 PM

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I would love to be able to find a decent copy of that full feature one day Paul as I do love musicals, but so far only have the marketing 3x 400ft edition.

Trouble is most of my Marketing prints are starting to lose a bit of colour nowadays though I do like the fact it is letterboxed as it fills my 16:9 ratio screen perfectly and of course, no scope lens needed so all the brightness and sharpness available from the print is retained.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurizio Di Cintio
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posted April 13, 2014 03:29 PM

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Thank you Paul. I agree with you as regards the aspcet atio of scope prints: they should be printed with black side bars and the actual image should be almost square.

A curiosity: could you post a close up of your 938's main rotary switch? It seems the singns printed on the lamp cover are different from mine. Thanx

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Maurizio

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Andrew Woodcock
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posted April 13, 2014 03:33 PM

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And mine also Paul.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Alan Rik
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posted April 13, 2014 06:07 PM

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The Beaulieu 708 HTI is only a little bit louder than the Halogen 708. But the GS1200 Xenon sounds like a jet is going to take off! The GS Xenon is much louder than the Beaulieu but...the picture with the 1.0 lens is really phenomenal. Apples and Oranges those machines!
Since I have both the Xenon GS and the HTI Beaulieu I only use the GS1200 Halogen for re-recording.
Also if you find a standard 1.1 Schneider, the ones that you can use with the Beaulieu you can use that for the Eumig. It goes straight in without modification. You just need to focus it with your hand but the difference in image is much better than with the lens supplied by Eumig.
I really liked the Eumig 940 but the image was just not bright enough. I remember showing "Coal Miners Daughter" to a non film friend. The Eumig blew a bulb so I had to use the standard 708. The first thing she said was, "That picture is so much better!"

[ April 14, 2014, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: Alan Rik ]

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Andrew Woodcock
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posted April 14, 2014 03:10 AM

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I never realized that the Beaulieu lens would fit the Eumig Alan.
I must try that next time I have it out. As you say though, it ain't going to transform the picture quality and brightness into that of the Beaulieu! Should improve it no end though.

You have some lovely machines there Alan, that is for sure! As you said the HTI is not THAT much noisier I may try to get one one day when I win the lottery ha ha.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Alan Rik
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posted April 14, 2014 07:51 AM

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Yes I like the GS Xenon machine but I LOVE the Beaulieu. The image it puts out with that light is really beautiful. Even when I had the Beaulieu 708 standard, the image it put out with the 150 Watt bulb was even brighter than the GS with its 200 watt. I'm sure the adjustable 2 bladed shutter helped as well as the fast pull down mechanism. I only wish there was a way to mount the 1.0 Elmo lens but others have tried but to no avail. Now that would be an even better picture. The 1.1 Schneider is no slouch but I was using the SMPT test film and the results were no contest. The 1.0 lens is a marvel of engineering. Sharp from corner to corner. Amazing lens!
Oh I almost forgot that I can also mount the Ektar lens on the Beaulieu as well. The image is small but wow..the definition and contrast are even better than the Elmo. If I had a bigger place with a longer throw the Ektar would live on the Beaulieu.

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Paul Adsett
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posted April 14, 2014 08:19 AM

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Alan, my Ektar lives on my 938. I have about a 20 ft throw so I can get a picture about 6 ft wide in Academy ratio. I never use the Eumig lens. Just wish I could modify the 938 to a 2-blade, then it would get closer to the brightness of the GS1200.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Andrew Woodcock
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posted April 14, 2014 09:48 AM

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If you lived in Europe Paul, I am sure FFR Filmtechnik would be able to make you one and fit it as they manufacture new shutter wheels to order (ie Bauer T610 etc). I don't know who you have in the states but surely it isn't impossible for anyone with a modelling lathe.

Even better if they could knock you up a two / three bladed adjustable one as in the Beaulieu. That way you would cover all of your options!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Maurice Leakey
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posted April 14, 2014 10:02 AM

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Paul was talking about the aspect ratio of Super 8 'scope prints.

I don't have an anamorphic for Super 8 but I do have a few 'scope cartoons which have black bars at left and right vertical. This would obviously reduce their aspect ratio when in 'scope mode.

I just enjoy them projected in standard ratio.

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Maurice

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David Ollerearnshaw
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posted April 14, 2014 12:32 PM

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Maurice, they sounds like Animex Cinvision prints. I have a few of the cartoons plus some trailer reels and they do look better. Some o the Universal 8's (Airport) were in this format, also Columbia (Born Free) and MGM (Ben Hur) had some.

I'll check which lenses I have. One is ELMO f1.4 25mm - 50mm long throw I find this a good one.

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I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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Paul Adsett
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posted April 14, 2014 12:40 PM

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David's Elmo long throw lens is a superb lens for auditoriums. In fact they use that very lens at the BFCC, which tells you just how good it is. However for home shows the Elmo f1.0 beats it hands down, with a much brighter picture as you would expect.
The problem with doing a 2-blade conversion of the Eumig 938 is not so much getting a shutter made, but how do you go about replacing it. I have done 2-blade conversions on both my GS1200's, but the 938 looks a whole lot more difficult. Has anybody ever actually done it?

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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David Ollerearnshaw
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posted April 14, 2014 01:52 PM

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On a two blade conversion am I correct in that you get flicker at 18fps?

The reason for my long throw is that I used to give shows to my local retirement home. I think the projector to screen would be around 40ft the screen was 72".

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I love the smell of film in the morning.

http://www.thereelimage.co.uk/

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