8mm Forum: Re-Recording Sound with DVD Audio

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Topic: Re-Recording Sound with DVD Audio

Joel Whybrow
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 100
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Dec 2008

posted June 14, 2015 08:08 AM

I have a print here I'd like to replace the soundtrack on as it's in German but not sure how I should be going about it, is there a guide somewhere or does anyone have any advice? I imagine it won't be easy to keep the print synced up with the audio?

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 14, 2015 11:53 AM

I have written about this on many occasions Joel if you would like to look back on this subject.

A lot depends on the projector used. To even have a modicum of success it MUST have a D.C. electronic drive chain and you will need some kind of video software to adjust the pitch and tempo of the digital copy to perfectly match that of your projector without having a sync pulse unit and sync pulse projector.

Obviously the easiest to do this on is the Elmo GS1200 or Braun Visacoustic 2000 or Yelco 3600 but using the method suggested above and a Bauer T610, I regularly achieve first class results using PCDJVJ and Bauer T610.

Using any ac driven machine, you are completely wasting your time by the way due to the constant variations in speed.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 15, 2015 12:17 AM

Andrew, How are you adjusting the speed of the Bauer T610? I thought it didn't have a fine speed adjustment? Well...mine didn't! [Smile]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 15, 2015 03:00 AM

No it doesn't Rik, though a kit can be obtained from Edwin if you desire this feature. My projector is as standard and has only a 18fps or 24fps electrical switch to change the fixed speeds.

My findings have been that if you run even just a 200ft short through the projector from cold, then when you do your first reel of recording, the projector maintains very stable consistent speed. That speed on any given day may vary somewhat by fractions of one frame per second but nevertheless it is constant after warm up.

All I do then to synchronize, is find the exact speed the projector is running at by altering the pitch/ tempo of my digital video software, and once found, it tends to stick with the projector almost perfectly.

If any miniscule adjustments are required throughout a 600ft reel being recorded, I use the slider control on my digital software controller to adjust the tempo/pitch by miniscule amounts to either catch up or slow down to the exact frame of the running film.

It is a visual technique by running the video image as close as is possible to a small A4 sized projected image and I have found that the eye will detect any very slight mismatch of frame before lip sync will be noticeably out.

I am a fussy bugger and I have to say this technique provides excellent results for me with just a little initial practice to begin with.

Very often the projector and software can run solo without me even touching the slider on the controller for around 20 minutes plus.

The Bauer has given me by far the best results of any machine I have tried using this method with.
The stereo recordings obtainable from the best digital sources of today far surpass ANY Derann pre recording I have ever heard on any of my films.

It is well worth the effort on any film where you are confident the stripe will be good enough to record on.
This of course, can always be tested on the films leader first.

This is roughly the set up I use minus the A4 screen when this was taken. In reality, the projector sits quite a bit further back than this photo suggests, therefore matching the image size of the laptop screen so as to closely monitor the two images side by side.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 15, 2015 03:45 AM

So you are adjusting the audio. In the UK DVDs run at 25 fps but here in the states ours run at 23.97 so after a bit we get drift unless we can keep the projector crystal sync'd.
Do you think we could get away with wild sync here on our NTSC system? I tried to re-record a Derann feature with my 610 but it wouldn't keep in sync.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 15, 2015 03:49 AM

Using the equipment shown here Rik, I am playing back the Audio and the Video at any speed I choose. Infinitely variable
as well.

The transfer software will adjust the digital version of the film to be converted at any speed you like Rik also ie 23.97, 24 or 25fps etc etc.

You have to first rip the DVD to a digital file, I use DVD encrypter free software for this.

Then I use "Any Video Converter" free software to convert the digital master to an AVI (Xvid)video file @ the selectable 24fps and at whatever resolution you like, it also converts the sound into 2ch St Wav format.

This then gets transferred by way of a memory stick over to my digital Video software and controller.

Then the process begins of placing the sound onto the film.

It sounds more complex than it actually is in reality.

If you have messed up the sound on your feature Rik, send it to me if you like and I will record it again for you.

This should be an easy process for you though Rik using your GS1200 and Sync Pulse box though I would have thought?

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 15, 2015 07:52 AM

No I ended up using the GS for it and it sounded, as you say, much better than the Derann original sound. But in the little test run I did with the Bauer.. the Bauer sounded even better than the GS!
Incredible results can be had with the GS as there is a gentlemen in California who re-records soundtracks and he did "Jaws", "Titanic", "Dawn of the Dead". They all came out incredible. Better than I could do here I have to admit! I think he adjusts the bias for each type of stripe he records on to get the best fidelity out of the recording. It works!

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 15, 2015 10:17 AM

That is taking the process seriously! Lol...Still I bet the end results are amazing when the stripe is good to begin with.

As you say Rik, the Bauer performs admirably in terms of actual sound quality when fed a decent source.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Joel Whybrow
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 100
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Dec 2008

posted June 18, 2015 06:40 AM

I didn't see these replies!

I have an ST-1200 at the moment but plan to get a GS soon so I guess I should wait for that. I guess the beauty of the thing is if I screw up I can always try again. German audio is of no use to me so nothing to lose I guess!

I had trouble finding specific posts on the subject but I think you explained it well enough for me here Andrew. Thanks!

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 18, 2015 08:17 AM

This will be an easy task for you Joel using a GS1200 and a sync box to pulse sync the pj to the DVD at 25fps.

If you can, try and find a MKIII with the reversed lower loop. Apart from the fact this will be one of the later models so therefore likely to be less wear to it hopefully,I believe it helps with some of the scratch issues associated with these machines and that can only be a number one priority to anyone with a prized collection of Super 8mm films.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Joel Whybrow
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 100
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Dec 2008

posted June 18, 2015 08:29 AM

Oh so I do need a sync unit? Ok, guess that's on my shopping list then. Which do you recommend in terms of ease of use/availability?

*EDIT* I just saw your setup.. wow! Could I persuade you to do it for me? I don't suppose I would have much use for all that stuff after this one re-record. It's a bit more in depth than I expected!

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Paul Adsett
Film God

Posts: 5003
From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted June 18, 2015 09:23 AM

I have found the Eumig 926GL Stereo and the Eumig 938 Stereo to both be excellent projectors for doing re-recordings. Both projectors maintain a very constant speed after warming up by running film for 20 minutes or so, and the mechanical speed control on these machines permits very slight adjustments of running speed to maintain synch. With good stripe, the sound quality that can be obtained is stunning.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012

posted June 18, 2015 10:35 AM

Paul is quite correct about the sound quality of these machines. It is exceptional. I have tried using the Eumig S938 in the manner described above as with the Bauer T610.

I suppose each machines transport mechanism is different on these as they solely rely on friction from rotating discs in a similar though rather better way to the Elmo ST1200s.

On my machine, the variations proved impossible to work with but obviously on Paul's set up it worked well for him.

Yes Joel you will still need to buy a pulse Sync box if you want to match it to 25fps DVD. These can be purchased from FFR Filmtechnik and Wittners.

So long as you are in no hurry Joel, have the complete feature with every single frame that matches the DVD, then I can do it for you.
The big but at the moment is that we have very trying times ahead of us due to a close family member having a very serious illness so my time meddling with films and equipment just for the foreseeable is extremely limited.

If this still fits with your requirements Joel, then yes I will do it.

Obviously the success of the re record depends entirely on the quality of stripe on the film but if it is pre striped low fade stock the results are usually excellent. Pasted stock can often be very temperamental.

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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