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Author Topic: Eiki Claw Mechanisms etc
Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted August 21, 2009 05:44 AM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi I was just wondering for some clarity on the Eiki claw swoop as it were on thier 16mm machines.???

I believe its not like say a B+H where the claw goes out straight, clean down then clean back and that that eikis work in more of an arc type way.???

Appreciate a full explanation if anyone knows.

Also how does that compare to super 8, do they use the same system or are they more exact if you will.

Many Thanks Mark.

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 21, 2009 02:52 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
The Eiki pull down (which in the early machines with the fibre cam is almost identical to the Elmo design) is a square operation. There are two cams in the cam tank. A large round plate that has a rise and fall in it moves the claw in and out and the fibre cam (replaced with a cast metal cam in the R series) moves the claw up and down.

If you are observing an arc or lazy pattern, then the cam plate is worn or defective. There were some bad cam plates but these were way back on the "S" series machines which appeared between the MS three sprocket machines and the ST or first self threader machines. The S machine was put on the market a little too early and had problems with threading and picture steadiness. These were almost all replaced with the ST machine so if you have one, it is a rare beast indeed.

The major change in the cam tank design cam with the R series. Prior to that the claw lever has held in place with bearing springs on the top and bottom of an opening in the claw lever--this was identical to the design in the Elmo and the RCA 400 series (which was a pattern for both Elmo and Eiki early machines). With the introduction of the R series, Eiki suffered a loss in personell. The man who cut every cam for the projectors and did it by eye and feel, died. Those early cams are stamped with L M H for variation in lift. What Eiki did is select through the finished cams and pick the best and then used them as a pattern for casting.

The R Series also changed the claw lever, instead of the springs on top and bottom of an opening, a nylon bearing is at the bottom and a spring holds it in contact with the cam the in/out cam follower is also a nylon bearng and can be replaced.
As the projector wears, the amount of claw protrusion actually increases. There are adjustment on the cam tank to handle variation of protrustion and overall position of the claw and the framing relationship to the aperature.

Again if you are having problems with what appears to be a lazy arc, make sure the the cam follower is actually following the cam (there is a flat spring that holds the lever against the cam plate for the in/out motion), the the cam plates are lubricated and everything is turning smoothing.

If instead you are seeing streaking, then check your shutter timing to the claw during pull down. Early or late will result in streaking of white titles on black either up or down. The mounting holes on the shutter are slotted allowing a slight adjustment of shutter timing. This this isn't enough to solve the problem, we should look further for problems that might be causing this issues (such as framing being way off).

John

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted August 21, 2009 03:54 PM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi John, very interesting.

No problems just wondered how the ones on the later slimline ones worked, and how they perform etc.

Got a slimline in the shed waiting for my slipped disc in my neck to sort before I can bring it in or lift it up.

Just got it but if things stay as grim on the bones front it may be a short trip back to 8mm only land sadly !!!!

Anyway appreciate the interesting bits.

Best Mark.

PS your thoughts on the later eiki`s, Mine is an SNT 1.

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 21, 2009 09:32 PM      Profile for Jim Schrader   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I know about the earlier bells did the eikis to they have the 3 claws too, these showed a much steadier picture especially if the film had bad sprockets

--------------------
jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 22, 2009 08:45 AM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
No the Eiki machines were just a two-tooth claw. There were several variations so a claw for the MS/ST won't be the same as one for the R/N series.

John

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted August 23, 2009 08:09 AM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Does anyone know the claw meachanism and workings on the later golden eiki range please. Thanks.

Best Mark.

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 24, 2009 10:45 AM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
The basic cam tank was the same all the way through the SNT and SSL. The SSL cam tank turns opposite to the SNT and the gearing of the sprockets is different but the cam tank operates the same as I described above on the R series.

John

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Mark Todd
Film God

Posts: 3846
From: UK
Registered: Aug 2003


 - posted August 24, 2009 12:03 PM      Profile for Mark Todd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi John what I meant was does the SNT have a square claw out down and back in or a more eliptical type swing if you will.
Does that scrape more on the sprocket hole bottom for instance ??? possibly.
I`ve noticed in the past the later golden Eikis seem to be less fussy than say some RT,s and NTs.
Best Mark.

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 24, 2009 01:10 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark,

The cut of the cams is the same, the parts are different between the slot and self-thread because the direction of rotation is different, but the action is square. In fact the claw is to enter the top position without touching the film and the pull it down. If you look at the claw you'll see that the arms are tapered so that as it retracts it doesn't disturb the film either.

The problem you observed can use caused by a worn cam follower on the cam plate and a mis-adjusted claw. If it's titled then you'll get disturbance. I have some test films which were shot on an optical printer from a freeze frame with a pin registered camera (Acme) and when properly adjusted, the projected picture will look just like a slide--do disturbance in the picture at all. I've done this on machines as old as the MS-860 (President) series dating back to 1966-67.

The overall problem with the system is that it is so easy to remove and install that few bother with the fine adjustments that really tune the system. Just removing and replacing a cam tank requires checking claw protrusion and level entry of the claw.

John

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frank arnstein
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 534
From: Gold Coast. Australia
Registered: Jan 2005


 - posted August 28, 2009 10:44 PM      Profile for frank arnstein   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi John,
Can you advise us on lubrication needs & procedure for the early Eiki camtanks?
I have found that the Blue RT1 versions have an oil hole with a small cover. Its high up on the cam tank & is used for getting oil drops onto the felt pad that is packed inside the cam tank. This wipes the cam every time it turns, leaving a protective film of oil.
However, the ST/m Green Eikis dont seem to have the filling hole there. Perhaps its elsewhere. You might know......???
What do you recommend on lubricating procedure for these earlier green ST models without the top oil filling hole? If they have the same big felt pad inside their cam tanks, how does one replenish the oil on an old ST/m machine that hasn't run for years.
Do these tanks need to be removed for oiling or do you squirt oil in through the claw hole, directly onto the cam?
How much oil is appropriate?

Your advice on this slippery issue is sought urgently & if any of the forum members can clarify this vexing issue, please contribute relevent comment.

dogtor pufferfish

[Confused]

--------------------
At Projector Heaven the Focus is always on Detail.

____
[o:/o]<|=- dogtor@projectorheaven.com.au
//``\\
-----------------------------------------------

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 29, 2009 10:57 AM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
While not a big fan of the ST series (still has the drawback of the motor windings used to provide voltages to the amplifier and a really old exciter lamp dc supply that isn't very stable), take the advice given to me years ago by Walt at International Audio-Visual after they just lost the Eiki contract for the US/Canada. When there is not oil hole, drill one.

The old help as you saw on the felt that holds the claw lever and wipes the cam plate. This is of more value on the early machines with the springs holding the claw lever in place on the cam inside the rectangle than it is on the later (R-series, NT-series and following) which have the spring pulling the claw lever up and holding it against the up/down cam. You still have the flat spring holding the claw against the in/out plate but an oiling on disassembly should last for several years.

Remember that Eiki expected you to use Silicone oil. The cam tank grease is Dow Corning 44. The factory applied a purple substance that the guys at IAV called purple jelly or grape jelly and was never made available to importers for service.

John

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