8mm Forum: Dupes

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Topic: Dupes

Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted March 05, 2014 10:54 AM

How can one tell a 16mm dupe?

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Paul Mason
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 540
From: Aldershot, Hampshire, UK
Registered: Nov 2013

posted March 05, 2014 11:17 AM

Jim, Do you mean "unoffical" or "pirate" copies. There are two main types of dupes 1) a 16mm print from a dupe negative created from original prints and 2) a reversal print made directly from the original print without an intermediate negative. The first gives inferior image and sound results compared to the original. the second is better but has increased image contrast which may be unacceptable. Duping by contact printing can sometimes be spotted by sprocket hole shadows in the copy from the original.

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Paul.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007

posted March 05, 2014 02:38 PM

A dupe can usually be recognised by the emulsion being on the other side than is usual, this is because in the printing of a dupe the emulsion on each print is contact-to-contact.
This is why such a copy often has an inferior look to it.

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Maurice

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted March 05, 2014 02:49 PM

There are ways to tell the difference between an original print and a dupe.
One way is the examination of printed in splices. A splice which goes across pic and track indicates a dupe.
However, there could of course be a splice which does not go across the track but which got printed into a dupe. Therefore, this can't be an absolute indicator of an original.

Incidentally, the word "dupe" printed into a lab leader would most likely indicate a dupe negative - not a dupe print.

Other giveaways such as the wrong title printed into a leader - such as The Ape Man for King Kong (I'm just making these up for the sake of illustration) - would indicate a dupe, in an effort to avoid detection in the old days.

EMKA leader indicating most likely an original MCA television print.

The best way though is simply experience.

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Paul Mason
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 540
From: Aldershot, Hampshire, UK
Registered: Nov 2013

posted March 06, 2014 03:19 AM

Contact copying doesn't always mean a dupe since original 16mm prints were sometimes made from a special 16mm intermediate or internegative to avoid using the precious master for release printing when a large number of prints were required- say 10 or more.

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Paul.

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted March 06, 2014 09:30 AM

upon looking at it closer the ending has no blackhawk tail the film barely fades out then goes to clear leader and has bad contrast as well I will have to reproject it on a different projector I used a trv to watch it on tv and those have awful contrast controls.

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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Alexander Vandeputte
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 243
From: Belgium
Registered: Nov 2009

posted March 07, 2014 02:17 AM

In my book, a dupe means: any print that, regardless of which printing method was used, originates from a positive projection print (instead of proper pre print material) Dupes can be reversal prints or can be made off a negative that itself was derived from a projection print.
Therefore dupes usually have higher contrast and less resolution.
So basically a dupe is a projection print made off another projection print, a copy of a copy.

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Paul Mason
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 540
From: Aldershot, Hampshire, UK
Registered: Nov 2013

posted March 12, 2014 11:04 AM

I completely agree. A projection print has high contrast so that it looks natural to the eye when projected. If this is copied or duplicated on high contrast print film the contrast increases unacceptably. It is possible to copy a projection film using low contrast material with reasonable results as used to be done when Kodachrome originals were copied with low contrast Ektachrome Commercial film (a masking technique was also required). The casual duper would regard this as too expensive.

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Paul.

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Jim Schrader
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1628
From: Savage, MN, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted March 14, 2014 09:44 AM

the film just looks like it has more contrast compared to my super 8 print of the same title.

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jim schrader
"Let's see “do I have that title already?"

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