8mm Forum: Bit of a strange one

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Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on August 11, 2014, 12:32 PM:

Hi, bit of a strange one here does anyone know anything about this washttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221518583154?ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1436.l2649 it some kind of test film ????,also is this someone on here whos selling it ??

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 11, 2014, 01:18 PM:

Yeah, I took a look at it Nigel but at 18fps and silent, I have no idea of it's origins??

Posted by Pasquale DAlessio (Member # 2052) on August 11, 2014, 01:38 PM:

Interesting auction. It has great color. I wonder if it is striped?

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 11, 2014, 01:50 PM:

If you look at the picture of the reel in the lower left there is a couple of inches of film laying on the case, looking unstriped.

Derann had The Lion King as 4x600, and Simba looks young in all the pictures. Maybe this is some fragment of Reel #1 that died young and wound up on the used list cheap or maybe a freebie for a customer.

I have the last 350(ish) Feet of "Grease" under similar circumstances (just the carnival and Olivia Newton John in that ...outfit!! Oh! -and the credits...I vaguely remember John Travolta as well.), but mine showed up striped and recorded.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 11, 2014, 02:30 PM:

There is no stripe on the film.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 11, 2014, 02:50 PM:

I'm thinking there was some mishap before they got to striping and recording and rather than tossing it in the bin they sent it out as is.

Unless it's some pirated print (post 1994?) it definitely started out at Derann.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 11, 2014, 03:03 PM:

Steve, i don't see how it can possibly be anything to do with Derann as it runs at it's correct running speed at 18fps. No Derann prints were ever printed to run at 18fps that I know of and if you read the opening page of any of their catalogues it clearly states that ALL films distributed by them run at 24fps. It sure is a strange one that's for sure.

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 11, 2014, 03:17 PM:

Here's a link, you can also see other films for sale :-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221518583154?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_ipg%3D100%26_sadis%3D15%26_ftrv%3D1%26_sop%3D12%26_dmd%3D1%26_ftrt%3D901%26_sacat%3D0%26_fro

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 11, 2014, 03:18 PM:

Is it 18FPS because there is a document with it specifying 18FPS, or is it 18FPS because the seller believes that's what you're supposed to project silent films at?

(Without sound, would it really make that much of a difference?)

I'm thinking Derann because they had exclusive Super-8 distribution rights from Disney, including this feature.

For this not to be a Derann print it would have to be some kind of pirate print. Why would anybody pirate a silent super-8 print of part of a movie they could get on VHS and very shortly DVD?

Derann's goofs did crop up on the used lists here and there at reduced prices.

Other possibility is that this a relic from early printing tests.

There have been super-8 cartridge based cranked toys (Derann printed many of the films for those too.), but this beast is pushing 20 minutes long. What kid has that kind of stamina or attention span?

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 11, 2014, 03:25 PM:

From inquiry it's correct running speed is 18fps. Therefore if you had it striped you would then have to obviously record the sound at 18fps. Unless you were happy to have it as a stand alone novelty, it would be useless to join to any other odd reels of the feature anyone may happen to have.

Also I am fairly certain Derann were not producing film for "toys" in this era Steve, maybe 20 odd years earlier perhaps but not in the 90's.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 11, 2014, 03:41 PM:

Let's forget about The Lion King for a second and talk about Jurassic Park.

In that movie they discussed Occam's Razor: how the simplest explanation for a phenomenon most often works out to be the truth.

Here we have:

Unique one-off 18FPS Super-8 pirated print of a film already existing as a 24FPS negative legally at Derann made in the 1990s several years after almost everyone had give up on Super-8. (Who?, Why?)

-or-

It's a piece of scrap from Derann.

I know what Occam is telling me here.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 11, 2014, 03:49 PM:

Yes Steve, what you are saying is of course, a possibility, however the fact remains that to most of us, apart from the novelty aspect, the film remains fairly useless as a "working print" to splice in. Certainly from my perspective it is anyhow.

Also Steve, Derann was very much in a mini boom regarding it's Super 8mm dept around the time they were releasing all their most sought after later titles in the very late 80's to mid 90's whilst Derek was still around. The Disney contract really raised the profile and interest in Derann again as I recall, even though Derek was not a big fan of such films himself.

Now what Andreas has just posted on the other hand,is a real unique decent find to someone like me!

Posted by Panayotis A. Carayannis (Member # 1220) on August 12, 2014, 02:34 AM:

My guess. Simply an unstripped or,without sound piece of film that the guy thought "..since it is silent,it must be run at 18 fps" (!!!)

Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on August 12, 2014, 10:32 AM:

Yes i thought might be some kind of test film to see how pictre quality was ,didnt derann add the sound themselves ,only thing if truely does run at 18 fps then that is strange and adds to the mystery .

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 12, 2014, 11:09 AM:

Derann usually received their film unstriped from an external lab double-run and 16mm wide. They then slit it to two 8mm prints, striped it and recorded it.

What's neat is if you can find a print of Lee Mannering's "Cinema in Miniature", you can see Derek Simmons doing this.

I'd like to know how it's been established that this is really meant to be 18FPS. Is there some set of instructions with it? Is there a printed label on the case?

Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on August 12, 2014, 11:30 AM:

I would like to see lees film ,and i think this is from derann source as cant see anyone risking a pirate copy or anything like that because of the costs and all the work involved and like you say would be on 16mm split down the middle to make 2 copies ,im tempted to bid on it if only to find out the truth behind it and im now curious of the content as in which part of the film and if its truly 18fps it would be about 30 mins ish long instead of about 16-18 at 24fps ,lee if you read this how do i get hold of your film ,thanks

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 12, 2014, 11:32 AM:

quote:

Also I am fairly certain Derann were not producing film for "toys" in this era Steve, maybe 20 odd years earlier perhaps but not in the 90's.

No, that is not true.

New toys with 8mm film inside

quote:
You are bidding on a portable Action Replay Player and Keyring with 4 8mm film cartridges. Batman Returns, Terminator 2, Schillaci & Platt and Crazy World Of Home Movies. In full working order. Happy Bidding!

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 12, 2014, 11:38 AM:

I think Steve Osborne at the Reel Image sells "Cinema in Miniature", which means you can probably get it through Classic Home Cinema too.

Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on August 12, 2014, 11:38 AM:

I can see where youre coming from here wimbert but the film in question here is a 400ft reel so diffrent to the toy films above .

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 12, 2014, 11:43 AM:

Nigel, If this is really 18fps, what I can guess before they put the film into that cartridge they have a long version film first before deciding which part to be included. While at the same time they can check on picture quality.

Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on August 12, 2014, 12:00 PM:

Winbert sorry for spelling your name wrong before .yes is true makes this a rare item then worth seeing what it sells for ,thanks for help.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 12, 2014, 12:21 PM:

If I could get it cheap enough (Ebay says "may not ship to the US") I'd grab it just out of curiosity.

There's a lot that can be learned just by looking at it closely. Does it begin with the head unspliced, or spliced? If spliced it means something is missing. If not it is the way it's supposed to be. How does it end? Are the scenes in the order of the original film or does it skip some?

The frame rate you'd need the DVD,some measurements and a little patience. If it's 18FPS time in seconds would translate to time times three inches of film. If it's 24 it would be time times four inches. You'd just need to find two events about 10 seconds apart that would be obvious on the print. (beginning and ending of a scene would be good.)

I would think if it's a digest of some kind it would jump around more, but Simba seems to be uniformly young.

Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on August 20, 2014, 12:23 PM:

Ok i won the auction on this one and it turned up today still a bit of a strange one ,film starts from the bit where scar is telling hyenas to go after simba and ends about half way through the acuma matarter song ,it does indeed play at 18fps colour is good but there seems to be some lab marks every so often ,about 20 mins of film here has a front leader and is marked up as reel 2 ,has no tail leader ends all of a sudden ,has is this reel 2 fronm the feature ?? does it start in the right place ??

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 20, 2014, 04:54 PM:

I still have no idea what to make of this print Nigel given that you have now confirmed it's correct running speed is 18fps. It's a total mystery to me but no doubt a nice watch if it is of Derann official release quality. Are you thinking of having it striped Nigel?

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 20, 2014, 07:54 PM:

Could it be a reversal print?

(ps: remember some years ago, Italians did this a lot of time by using 35mm positive print they "hired" from the cinema)

Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on August 21, 2014, 02:48 AM:

Hi, how much would this cost to have striped

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 21, 2014, 10:14 AM:

About 0.60 euro/meter at least plus the postage to Germany and back. If it is on Ester they can only do the main stripe not the balance. So for 400ft of film, you're looking at around 72 euros plus postage. So, based on what the film sold for, I guess the answer will be no then Nigel, unless of course you are of the mindset it is worth it?

It can be as cheap 0.35 euros/meter if it is a certain type of Acetate stock I think.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 21, 2014, 12:19 PM:

The curious one I found was the *X600ft BEN HUR print, which is in "Cineavision" packaging.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ben-Hur-in-Stereo-Super8-Cineavision-8-reels/221521966170?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D25291%26 meid%3Da615787ae13347b99d5cd8489ea6b7e8%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D10621%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D221518583154

Now, I've always known about the Cineavision 1X400ft and the sadly quick fade 3X400ft, but I've never seen the full feature as a Cineavision print. I think I'll write the seller and find out if it's actually a CIneavision and what the color looks like (as he doesn't mention it).

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on August 21, 2014, 12:34 PM:

How did you confirm the 18FPS speed?

Generally speaking a 24FPS film doesn't look that slowed down at 18: just a little bit...leisurely. A car in frame going 60 would seem to slow down to 45, a scene lasting 10 seconds would now last 13.3 seconds: not all that drastic a change.

-think about all the people that never had 24FPS machines and watched silent editions of 24FPS films without ever griping it.

Where the difference would be really bad would be with a sound track. I've heard a variation of 5% frame rate is tolerable as far as audio pitch, but here we are talking 25%.

Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on August 21, 2014, 01:08 PM:

Hi, steve ,it doesnt look to fast at 24fps ,but looks to be right at 18 fps ,i dont think ill get it striped ,its a good little film to own and wasnt to expensive just £15.27 in the end

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 21, 2014, 11:39 PM:

Nigel, if you have a DVD/BlueRay of thisfilm, playthis at the same point. You play it at 24 fps on your projector. If it drifts by a lot, it means it is 18 fps.

Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on August 22, 2014, 01:56 AM:

Thanks winbert i give it a go and let you know how i get on .

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 23, 2014, 10:31 AM:

I wrote the seller about BEN HUR "Cineavision" full feature, and this was the sellers response ...

Hi

I am sorry we have no way of a assessing the colour on this.

Best wishes

Gillian
on behalf of Recycle Warehouse

... so, please proceed with caution if you are willing to bid on the item. For all we know, it could actually be a CIneavsion full feature, but my guess is that it is either a Kempski scope print or a Derann reprint of the title with Cineavsion packaging.

Strangely enough, the seller says that they checked out the leader for the reels, so you would think that they would have at least seen as to whether the colour was OK or not.

I would be curious, (if the buyer is one of our forum members), to find out if it IS actually a Cineavision full feature as, (earlier stated), I have only known of the 1X400ft Cineavision and the 3X400 Cineavision digest.

Good luck to whoever bids.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 23, 2014, 10:40 AM:

The reasoning behind the sellers assessment of the film is in the title of the shop Osi. I think it is a charity shop if I am not mistaken therefore they will know nothing about films or how to show them and therefore how to check them, or for that matter even know what they are looking for.
It is very much a case of;
"You pays your money, you take your chances on this one!"

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 23, 2014, 10:44 AM:

Yep, I believe that your right. I wonder if I gently "prod" the seller, if they would be willing to unspool just a tad more, to give it a visual inspection of the film?

Mind you, I already have the feature myself, but I'd just be curious so that others will not be perhaps out 70 or more pounds for the feature. It would be quite a find if it IS a Cineavision full feature print, as THAT would be an extreme rarity and judging by the sharpness of the previously mentioned digests, would have a very good image quality.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 23, 2014, 10:50 AM:

£70 still sounds ok to me no matter flat / scope or otherwise. A full MGM Epic feature on 7 or 8 reels for £70! Bring it on!

As long as it isn't scratched to death, sounds like a fantastic price to me. Would be at least £200 from the dealers. Even if badly scratched you would just give it back as it would qualify as not fit for purpose.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 23, 2014, 10:59 AM:

That and, hey, if it isn't all that hot, you could possibly make your money right back, (although I'm thinking it will rise higher than 70 pounds).

Whoever is the person to win it, please be so kind as to give a report as to the print itself. I'm sure that many besides myself would love to know!

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on August 23, 2014, 03:41 PM:

Looked at that Ben Hur They say they have no way of testing it. Well they are selling a GS1200 projector. Does this not work?

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on August 24, 2014, 04:26 AM:

Good point David, I hadn't picked up on that.

Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on August 24, 2014, 04:48 AM:

I thought the same they are selling a projector as well ,I hope to buy this if goes. For the price I would pay as seems a nice rare find

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 25, 2014, 12:38 PM:

It looks like it might fetch a handsome price.

Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on August 26, 2014, 01:46 PM:

Carrying on the trend with unusual film finds does anyone have any info as to what this one could contain .

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Two-Vintage-Super-8mm-Home-Movies-Bionic-Man-Steve-Austin-On-7-Reels-/311065099740?pt=UK_DVD_Film_TV_OtherFormat
incase link not right item number is 311065099740

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on August 26, 2014, 03:01 PM:

I view the seller's comments with some suspicion. A 7" spool is unlikely to hold 500ft. It's only designed for 400ft. One spool is not full.
Further comment that he does not have a projector that accepts such spool sizes is even more odd. The cheapest Super 8 sound projectors accept 400ft spools.
I hope the eventual buyer will not be disappointed.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 27, 2014, 12:09 PM:

Man ... I just LOVE super 8. Bionic Man on super 8!

What will pop up next?! [Smile]

Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on August 27, 2014, 03:34 PM:

Thats what i thought osi i didnt know bionic man was on super 8mm could this be a rare find indeed .

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 27, 2014, 08:55 PM:

I once bid something obscure like this and I ended up with someone's home movie shot onto TV screen for the same title advertised.

Practically it is no use since the camera is moving, bars flickering, not the right color tone due to lab process, etc.

Now if you see on the pictures, you will realize how many splices on each reels. You can see some division on the spools, that I will guess around 50' each. This can be likely the same thing I got from the previous experience.

But for GBP 4.99....it is still a good try.

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on August 28, 2014, 02:39 AM:

The Ben Hur went for £145.44 Did anyone here but it?

On that Bionic Man, it also says on the reel Bionic Woman. Could it be an airline print in optical?

The seller has a VHS copy of SS Experiment Camp @ £300 another @ £250.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on August 28, 2014, 07:56 AM:

David, i never heard a TV episode as an airline print. This can make sense that airline movie show only showed in a long haul flight, and a 45 minutes show will not be enough and moreover will not be of interest of people at that time.

Secondly, we can see that the first 400' is full but the second reel is 3/4 full. So I can guess the total lenght will be approx. 700' or eqv. 35 minutes at 24 fps. Normally a TV episode is 45-48 minutes to give 20% spot for commercials.

Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on August 28, 2014, 11:12 AM:

Firstly I didn't go for Ben hur as brought some other films instead,but I'd like to know if anyone on here did and what it is like, as for bionic man this is another strange on and if filmed from tv of course it would be practically useless ,

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on August 28, 2014, 11:26 AM:

I don't know if Bionic Man made it onto optical sound for a fact, but I do know that some British TV shows made it onto super 8 optical sound. "Department S" for instance, and I've also heard that "The Avengers" also were released as super 8 optical, but I have no idea as to how many or what episodes.

Posted by Nigel Higgins (Member # 4312) on August 28, 2014, 12:39 PM:

Derann released i think it was 3 episodes of the avengers in 400ft and 3 x400ft versions back in the 80s/90s of course very hard to find nowdays i know one episode was positive negative man as far as i know magnetic sound .

Posted by David Ollerearnshaw (Member # 3296) on August 28, 2014, 02:47 PM:

Derann's The Avengers on super 8 3x400ft and 400ft edited

The Living Dead
Return of the Cybernauts
The Positive Negative Man
This one From Venus With Love not too sure if this came out or not, but it was in their hire catalogue.

They were also slightly edited, the tag at the end was cut. Winbert is correct they were magnetic sound and quite good prints too. I'm lucky4 to have all three.

I have The Zoo Gang (ITC) in optical this is an airline print. I also have a copy of Jason King again from ITC.

I do remember on BA they did show some TV episodes.

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