8mm Forum: So I just filed a claim with Deutsche Post for damaged item?

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Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on September 21, 2017, 09:00 AM:

Has anyone had to file a claim for an item that was received damaged from Deutsche Post? My Super 8 projector arrived damaged and the shipper blames the shipping company and tells me to take it up with "them".
I filed a damaged item report with Deutsche Post but was wondering what are the chances I will be getting reimbursed for the damage.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 21, 2017, 11:22 AM:

We'll see, fingers crossed for you! [Smile]

Best way to get good results, don't take "no" for an answer ... keep on pressuring them, write to the highest level if you have to but keep all info on hand, tracking number ect ect.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 21, 2017, 12:31 PM:

It's absolutely infuriating Alan that in this moranic 21st C world we have all inherited, it is completely incapable of understanding the notion that valuable rare and now almost irreplacable goods might just need more than a single layer of bubblewrap thrown into the bottom of a cardboard box to see them safe in transit!

Also what is equally baffling to someone like myself is why on earth it is impossible to find any global courier that understands how to handle the cargo it is trusted with any form of respect and care.
[Mad]

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on September 21, 2017, 12:44 PM:

Yes I loved that projector. It was one of my favorite ones and now its a giant paperweight. It was in mint condition. When it arrived I was happy until I saw the substandard packing job. And then found the 50lb projector had worked its way down to the bottom of the box crushing the green biodegradable packing peanuts. Everyone who knows anything about packing something so rare and valuable knows that there has to be a barrier on the bottom, the top, the sides, so the item is like an egg. Completely protected in the case that the box IS dropped. But no.. the reply I received was:
"We are extremely sorry that there were such difficulties in the delivery. We usually pack with "Flo-Pak Green" which are recyclable, dust-free and antistatic. These build up biologically. Styrofoam is no longer used. The disadvantage of the "Flo-Pak Green" is that these can be easily pressed under pressure. There are no problems with shipping within the EU.
We have almost no experience with transport to the EU abroad. Since this is a transport damage, this is of course to be complained. We are sure that we have packed the unit properly."
What? ugh. This experience makes me want to quit this hobby and just get a digital projector!
[Mad]

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 21, 2017, 01:29 PM:

Don't do that Alan.

Just don't send to Europe anything like this ever again!

The halfwits running these courier companies cannot be trusted, ever!!

Not helped of course by shoddy packaging in the first instance.
Neither is without blame in this case.

Posted by Mathew James (Member # 4581) on September 21, 2017, 01:40 PM:

Some people have no clue how to ship and blame shipping companies. Others know how and until you see the packaging you can never tell...

When i bought my elmo st1200, it was wonderfully protected, oh yes, the seller decided to put thousands of packing styrophome peanuts in with it...took me a week to finally clean every static laden piece out of every nook and cranny..... but in the end...the bulb still worked [Smile]

How annoying this must all be Alan!

Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on September 21, 2017, 01:50 PM:

I don't know about the German post but when you start a claim to the Belgian post, you receive one month later a message asking you to provide the packing ! And they insist on the fact that it's "very important". Probably a way to find a way to never take any responsability. If it was so crucial, they would mention it on the claim form. It's obvious that most of the people will not keep a packing during one month..

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 21, 2017, 02:03 PM:

I sent a Kodak slide projector off to get one of those wonderful bits of brittle Kodak Plastic replaced so the slide advance will work again.

I spent a couple of weeks watching the packing materials headed for the garbage at work. I got the right sized box, and then started collecting pieces of molded Styrofoam and built this elaborate structure to enclose the projector with about 3 inches of foam on all sides. (It's beautiful! -Almost a shame to send it away!)

-here's hoping they don't send it back in foam peanuts!

I got a "mint" movie projector like this once and UPS converted it from a runner into a parts machine!

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on September 21, 2017, 06:22 PM:

The sad thing is that the box I shipped it in had numerous pieces of foam and cardboard, and packing materials, and it was isolated inside the box floating like a giant egg. Even if it was dropped it would have landed on 4 inches of foam on each side and top and bottom.
Why they didn't just re-use the same custom box I have no idea. I have a friend who speaks fluent German and he will call them tomorrow and see what they propose to do or if they will shirk all responsibility.

Posted by Bill Phelps (Member # 1431) on September 21, 2017, 06:37 PM:

Sadly they must have considered your packing materials not good for the environment and used their environmentally safe packing materials that crush under pressure, or so they claim. That doesn't sound like they packed it properly (another one of their claims) That sucks.

Posted by Jason Smith (Member # 5055) on September 21, 2017, 06:52 PM:

Alan, I would love to see a picture of the packing job.

I have checked projectors at the airport before for international flights and never had a problem with a broken projector. I'm a proponent of the double box method.

It takes a lot of time but at the very least they should
1. Bubble wrap the projector
2. Make a custom made box to fit it like a glove
3. Surround that box with more bubblewrap
4. Last, they should make another custom made box to cover the projector.

If I were shipping a projector internationally, I would look at using double ply cardboard for shipping a projector. I'm going to assume that was something they did not use.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on September 21, 2017, 08:23 PM:

When I received the projector it was in an oversized box. There were no rips or tears to the box but it was not structurally sound looking. It looked and felt a little soft like a bean bag. I opened it up and first thing i saw was it was filled to the top with these little green packing pieces called Flo Pack. They look like Harvest Snapea crisps!
I put my hand down, down, and down and then I felt the projector. It was on the bottom of the box. I wasn't worried yet because I thought maybe they placed some foam or styrofoam or SOMETHING on the bottom. But when I pulled up on the projector using the handle I saw that it was wrapped i would say 2x around the machine, with the small bubble wrap. Not the one with the big bubbles. But i doubt that would have helped.
So thats all they did. One soft box that did not retain its shape, filled with Flo Pack and then bubble wrapped 2 times around the machine. And then placed in the box. I took the projector home, unwrapped the bubblewrap and then saw the damage to the bottom casing first. I thought well..maybe its just cosmetic. So I opened up the casing on the bottom and a transformer "fell" out. It was unattached so I couldn't tell if it was a part that was replaced and then left there.
And then I saw all the rest of the damage. Broken rear arm, dented fan on the Lamp Housing door, loose hour metric counter for the bulb. Nervously I turned it on and of course..lamp doesn't work. Fans on the projector and the base..not working.
And its such an expensive and rare machine.
When I sent it it was bubble wrapped, placed in one box, then bubble wrapped again, placed in another box with foam and styrofoam. It was perfectly packed for its voyage.
Its so disappointing. I really am hoping that I can get it back to its somewhat original state. I haven't even been able to see if the sound works or anything else. It threads properly that is good but without being able to see an image who knows what else happened to it?

Posted by Jason Smith (Member # 5055) on September 21, 2017, 08:52 PM:

Alan, it was definitely a substandard packing job.

1.No big bubble wraps used.
I don't like packing peanuts and I'm not going to say that they should not have been used but I don't think they were a replacement for an inner box. A custom inner box should have been made for the projector and then peanuts should have been used in the box. I prefer big bubble wrap.

2.Flimsy box on the outside.
Double wall cardboard should have been used for the outside box...especially for an international shipment. Especially if they were not going to double box it.

I have only been in this hobby for two years and it seems like I have a better idea of how to ship a projector than whoever packaged yours.

This Youtube video taught me how to package a projector using the double box method.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoIOe_gztYM

Posted by Michael Lattavo (Member # 4280) on September 22, 2017, 04:21 AM:

Thanks for the video Jason! I need to ship a proector out for repair, and was worried about how best to do it!

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on September 22, 2017, 08:41 AM:

An interesting video.
But I would have preferred to have seen much more packing between the outer box and its internal package.

Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on September 22, 2017, 11:20 AM:

Hi Folk,

Here is a link (In French , sorry. Copy/Paste into Reverso transducer could be helpfull) which give you an idea to prepare a proper packaging :

INTERNATIONAL PACKAGING NORMS

Chapter H : Test for sending a BEAULIEU around 20Kg is a fall of 60 cm High
(Fall test comply with ISO 2248 & ISO 2206 rules).

Alan, just an idea as an other :
If you paied the service with a Credit Card as Visa Card ( or any other) , may this card includes a customer protection for this particular case ????

CUSTOMED SAFETY CASES / FLIGHT CASES :

May be Dominique or anybody from Belgium will confirm something :

There are some compagnies in Belgium specialized in manufacturing STRONG SAFETY CASES / FLIGHT CASES for sensitive items shipment to any sizes and at a very competitive price
Is it correct ?

Anyway, I assume a good way to do (for heavy items shipping) is to compose package with a mix from flexible foam and crushable "honey comb style" hard paper as a final coat....

[ September 22, 2017, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Phil Murat ]

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 22, 2017, 12:19 PM:

I always get a sour stomach when I see how "postal Gorillas" handle packages, and don't get me started on airline workers and how they handle packages!!! (Yikes!) [Eek!]

Best wishes and best of luck on a good resolution on this issue, I certainly hope that you still have some of that packing!!

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 22, 2017, 12:44 PM:

While he was in college, my friend did an internship at United Parcel Service. This was management training, but they made the interns go through combat training down in the trenches, whether it was driving trucks at 6:30AM five towns away or dealing with customers at the front desk: it's how they weeded out the faint of heart.

A couple of times they made him load trucks headed out for local delivery. Step one was to build a wall of boxes out on the loading dock prior to sorting them onto the shelves in the van.

More than once his supervisor didn't like how he built up the wall and he kicked it over. He didn't care if Aunt Mabel's tea set or a set of steel brake discs were in the boxes, over they went!

When I was getting ready to ship the slide projector off for repair, I was thinking about this and asked the repair place which shipper I should use. They told me it's pretty much the same thing, it's the packaging that has to make the difference.

All the shippers really guarantee is delivery: the rest is up to whoever packs the items up to travel. That's the reason UPS will not accept packages with string tied around them: they can't promise their workers won't pick them up and fling them.

I guess that's the difference between a shipper and a courier!

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on September 22, 2017, 12:45 PM:

I wish but the company does not take credit card so everything was through bank transfer. I do not have any of the packing as it always took 3-4 days between emails to the repair center. I assumed they would take full responsibility for the inadequate packing job and I wouldn't be in this position. Never again will I use bank transfer unless I have done business before with them.

Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on September 22, 2017, 01:06 PM:

May be you have a general insurance to protect consumers against unsatisfactory services (Garages, plumbers, etc.....)
This can be included in a "insuring package" when you insured your home, for exemple

This is quite common from my side, assume this is same thing from your side (This something call like court protection I think) ?

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on September 22, 2017, 01:34 PM:

Well if the business was located in the USA I could take him to small claims court. But I have no idea what kind of protection I would have from the USA to Germany.
Anyone know?

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on September 23, 2017, 02:12 AM:

Alan
There is a small claims court system in Germany. Germany is in the EU therefore the system is available for claimants from any other EU country.
Unfortunately, the USA is not a member of the EU!

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on September 25, 2017, 07:45 PM:

Any reason for not saying what projector is was? Was it a Beaulieu, Alan? Hope not. What a horror story. I too am in favour of metal flight cases. They can be made to order. Also insist on double-boxing when buying a machine.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 25, 2017, 07:49 PM:

It is for Alan to say Steven but all i will say is for any true Super 8mm lover, it is our worst nightmare and I truly feel for Alan despite his very best efforts here regarding this one.

If Public hangings one day, once again become prevalent, then these couriers of Alan's are having it first!

He did his bit, everyone else let him down badly!

Posted by Phil Murat (Member # 5148) on September 27, 2017, 01:41 AM:

Hi Andrew,

Hope sincerely Alan get satisfaction at the end.

It's a shame how this repair station in Germany neglected Alan's Machine , this compagny is simply totaly unprofessional, it have no idea of it does !!

They do not deserve to have a job.
Alan's is right to be fully upset.
From my side , this compagny is just Black-listed now!!
However , same thing to observe from my side of course, it is very, very difficult to find a "trustworthy" repair station too at this time.

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on September 27, 2017, 01:57 AM:

I once bought a small silent dual gauge elmo from from a UK dealer but it had just been popped in a not so strong box in a some of these polystyreen bean type things. No actual bubble wrap etc round it at all.

It had just worked down through the bean things and been bashed like mad on the bottom of the pack to say the least.

Bit of a right off sadly.

Its amazing what a few good bashes can do to an 8mm or even 16mm projector even if it just looks as if the feet are bent or snapped etc there is usually havoc elsewhere too.

Best Mark.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on September 27, 2017, 12:59 PM:

I wonder if since the United States Postal Service was the end shipper here if you could work a claim through them?

If it fell off a conveyer at JFK, or between the postal truck and your front door, would Deutsche Post really be responsible anyway?

(It's the moment of truth...FedEx delivered my Dad's slide projector to the repair place today!)

Posted by Maurice Leakey (Member # 916) on September 27, 2017, 01:51 PM:

Steve has made a very valid point.
Here, in the UK, parcels from DHL transit from Germany are handed over to Britain's Royal Mail Parcel Force for handling and delivery.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 27, 2017, 02:00 PM:

The biggest headache though in all of this for Alan, is actually getting somebody to accept blame for what has happened.

Somebody would need to be honest and say where the poor handling took place.
It could even be that the package had been thrown around like a football at every step of the way, so then what?

At times like this, every man and his dog denies any wrong doing.
There simply isn't one bit of integrity knocking around these days with any of these big businesses.

They will take your money all day long but don't do their bit which is to supply a quality and reliable professional service.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on September 27, 2017, 02:20 PM:

Yes its the same here. Deutsche Post hands it over to USPS once here. I wouldn't be surprised if the USPS damaged it. They are really bad they way they handle packages but they aren't the only ones. I have shipped items and they have never been damaged but I have been shipped items. I think I had 3 GS1200's that were trashed. 2 of them were from Fedex Ground. But the shipper was also to blame as they packed just as bad as the repair center in Germany. Come to think of it I had a Beaulieu come from Deutsche Post many years ago that was damaged as well. The seller was from Ebay and I told him and he at least paid 1/2 of the repair since he felt somewhat responsible but this repair center has not tried to make any amends. And they are 1/2 at fault. I've never seen such a shoddy packaging job from an actual company. Its really ridiculous.

Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on September 27, 2017, 02:55 PM:

I think because as you say Alan, the repair centre are at least 50% to blame, that is where my energies would lie with this one.

It is indisputable to an independent inspector that there is no way the packaging was fit for purpose given the weight of these machines and given your description of the packaging.

Items such as this, given their weight, quite besides their delicate nature, should always be packaged in a wooden crate outer box, cardboard inner and with Styrofoam fitted inserts
moulded to the machine itself of considerable thickness.
Only then would the packaging be fit for rigours of a Trans-Atlantic journey.
This would also mean that the couriers would be forced to use the correct lifting apparatus every step of the way as the item would be simply too heavy and large to be safely lifted.

The courier companies will just pass the book from one to another so that's almost an impossible avenue to pursue.

Even if you could get 50% of the costs to right this machine again from the actual repair centre, that would at least be something.

Either way, with horror stories like these from Alan here and others I've heard from the other Alan in Florida, if I were a U.S. citizen, there is no way I'd have any faith left to ship products like these half way around the globe.

I'd just be looking nearer to home for repair work in the future and having just the parts shipped in by Wittners etc.
They at least, do package their goods really well.

I've only ever sent one of my own machines once to Germany for repair work before replica parts were ever available.
Even that one I had to repair it myself once it was returned to me damaged, with all refurbishment carried out, it still wasn't working anything like how it should and that was beyond the actual damage in transit.

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on September 27, 2017, 03:46 PM:

Sadly Alan you will be likely left in a state of limbo with the repair centre and courier each blaming one another - in reality though the courier may have had half a chance of getting it to you in undamaged condition if the German repairer had packed it as well as you had when you sent it to them. If only you still had their shoddy packaging to show any claims department.

All courier companies use very deep wheeled cages and conveyors to move parcels regardless of the fragile labels on the packaging. They are more concerned with speed than careful handling hence the double boxing and copious sponge packaging is a must especially under the Beaulieus fragile bottom surface.

If only the repairers had re-used your packaging which was proven to be good as the projector got to them safely when you posted it.

I hope you can get somewhere with this just keep complaining to the repairers I would think is the best option - perhaps even tell them you will mention them by name on here and other cine forums unless they get it sorted quickly as I am sure this experience will put others off using them.

Kevin.

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on September 28, 2017, 11:42 AM:

I hope to hear a very good end to this series of posts! Fingers crossed for you! [Smile]

Posted by Jason Smith (Member # 5055) on October 04, 2017, 06:55 PM:

Any updates Alan?

Would you be willing to disclose the make and model of projector that was damaged?

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on October 05, 2017, 05:04 AM:

HI Jason,
Sure. The company in Germany, I will name them by Monday if I don't hear back from them, which I'm pretty sure I wont, damaged my Beaulieu 708 HTI Stereo machine.
They sent it to me badly packed and informed me that they did not insure it because I didn't ask them to! Even though I told them the machine was purchased from Sweden literally brand new and please take good care of it. So they shipped it to me wrapped 2x around with bubble wrap and then placed it in a box with little green peanuts. Not double boxed..everytime I think about It I can't believe how stupid they are to pack that way AND not insure. [Mad]

The latest news is no news as they keep stating that: It was damaged by the courier and we packed adequately. No they did not. They should not be in business. I sent them an email showing them this thread and telling them that I am not asking for anything free... except for them to take responsibility for the damage and either pay for all the damages or at least refund my monies I paid them. No reply as I expected.

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