8mm Forum: Off-Topic..Sincere good wishes to Great Britain

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Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 07, 2005, 05:12 PM:

Sorry to hear the horrible news about the
cruel events on the bus and train stations.

Prayers and Sincere good wishes to
everyone over there. Hoping that everyone
is coping well with the situation.

Michael

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on July 07, 2005, 05:15 PM:

God bless our brothers and sisters in Great Britain. Good will conquer this evil.

Posted by Antoine Orsero (Member # 41) on July 07, 2005, 05:17 PM:

I present my condolences at the families of the victims of the attacks at London and all my sympathy with the English people with whom I feel interdependent! That God protects our Europe!
[Frown]

Posted by Joe Taffis (Member # 4) on July 07, 2005, 06:41 PM:

I echo the previous sentiments....

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on July 07, 2005, 09:10 PM:

My heartfelt sorrow goes out to all our friends in the UK. May you find strength and resolve through your terrible loss. JUSTICE WILL PREVAIL.

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on July 08, 2005, 01:07 AM:

Michael

Many thanks for your thoughts. it is a situation in the UK that was once only too familiar but that was in the days of the IRA who had the decency to at least give a warning.

As far as I know members of this forum are all OK.

Like you are thoughts are with those less fortunate.

BUT these terrorists will not break the spirit of a nation. Never.

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on July 08, 2005, 01:44 AM:

Whilst our thoughts and prayers must be with the familys and friends of those who were killed or injured in this cowardly act, we shouldn't forget that The Plague, The Blitz and 30 years of IRA bombs did nothing to dampen the resolve of Londoners.

I doubt therefore that the pathetic actions of a few spineless terrorists will.

Mike

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on July 08, 2005, 04:23 AM:

Yes Horrible day, terrible.
But it is worth bearing in mind that events such as this and even worse are happening daily in Iraq and get barely a mention and they don`t have the facilities to cope like we do. And that situation is something we brought about.
Its a sad time to hopefully reflect and learn and hopefully get to grip with why these aweful things happen in a thinking way.
Although almost 3oo miles away up here you can almost feel the countries horror and sadness washing across everywhere. Those poor people who have suffered!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best Mark.

Posted by Chip Gelmini (Member # 44) on July 08, 2005, 10:40 AM:

Ditto ditto ditto

Chip Gelmini
Cape Cod Massachusetts USA

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 08, 2005, 11:32 AM:

Unfortunatly i know its wrong but i still say Mr powell was right in the 60's in what he said. Too many do gooders. [Mad]

I'm sure the soldiers doing the war (which only Blair and Bush wanted)will now do tit for tat.Round in Circles we go.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 08, 2005, 01:43 PM:

There are no easy solutions, and blame should not be cast upon anyone.
If at all anything, the world is confronted with barbaric individuals that will not stop unless they believe that they have fulfilled a need to destroy the fabric of western civilization. It is not easy to think or understand about the battles in the far reaches of the desert and mountainous terrain's of the world.
Nevertheless, war is horrible.

My experience was cemented for me eight years ago, when I visited with my wife, your beautiful country- Great Britain. Some of the sights which we took in were the Cabinet War Room Museum, and the Imperial Museum. Indelible images that are compelling and not to be missed by anyone visiting this great nation.

It taught me that Londoners, have a strong resolve and are not willing to cave into appeasement.

We were also fortunate to be on a half-day guided coach tour that took us by Allied command and onto St. Paul's Cathedral. This wonderful tour guide- (His name was Bert) told us some interesting stories of Britain during the Blitz. One about his Grandmother, in which she had the thought of returning home to get her dentures, in the midst of chaos. She was then reminded that the opposition were not dropping sandwiches!

Another impression, which I had mentioned in an earlier thread, was in returning back to The Hotel Churchill in the evening.
The hotel management and staff were very courteous, but the hotel patronage in the evening made us feel as if we did not belong in the hotel.

It was uncomfortable and needless to say, very discriminatory.
Our money is just as good as theirs, and I don't care where their birth place or cultural descendants originated. This commentary is not a blanket slam against all those who have immigrated over into England, only an observation of people that display rude behavior, and need to assimilate into a culture, and not behave poorly upon others. Words were never exchanged, only the harsh glares of those upon us unsuspecting tourists.

I don't intend to sound uncivilized, but perhaps some wily rugby players are enough to track down and dismember these lousy louts of society that created the mess on the bus and in the tubes.

Michael

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 08, 2005, 02:05 PM:

Exactly mate.
My name sake is 50/50 English-Greek, Born and bred here like many i just find it amazing to see this Great country not only taking in people from around the world as free countries do but bending over backwards to help them all have there rights here, i.e, build mosques, etc, (try going to Saudi Arabia & drink some beer in public and see what happens to you)and its all thrown back in your face, The first mistake was when in the late 60's-early 70's the law allowed a turbin to be worn in place of a crash hat on a motor cycle. Remeber that? My point is, as you say, this is a great country, but if the law of the land doesnt stop bending to allow minorities rights over the mojority then in my humble opinion you aint seen nothing yet. I know of no other country where local councils ban the flying of the trditional flag, (union Jack) simply because it offends a minoirty. If they dont like it then i'm sorry they shouldnt be here. My Father came here as a lad of 12 and always worked for his living and never once claimed off the state, and he fitted in to this countries way of life, (& applied to be here without coming in the back of a lorry) Not too sure about what you see on the TV but in the real world in my workplace,(and pubs),of well over a hundred the anger was boiling and what ive said here is nothing to what the general public say. The great BBC seem to always withhold that view being a Politacly-correct bunch.
We've now witnessed again first hand what happens when these twats donts get there own way.
Lets hope its over and London gets back to normal.

Posted by Alan Rik (Member # 73) on July 08, 2005, 03:16 PM:

It was really sad to hear the news about the horrible events that just took place in London. I know how they must feel as I was here in NYC for 9/11.
I hope everyone is well over there. Beautiful place with wonderful people.

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on July 08, 2005, 04:00 PM:

Tom, I am saddened to hear your comments about the immigrant population in the UK. I usually make it a point of principal not to enter into Political discussions on these forums, but as I have already posted on this thread I shall make one more posting and leave it at that.

Britain is a truly great country and a country that is truly made up of many cultures colours and Creeds. Migration into the UK isn’t a new thing [despite the fact that many of the tabloids would have us believe t started in the 1950s] it has been with us forever, how many of us can trace our DNA back to the Viking invasions or the Roman occupation of 2000 years ago? For my part my Mother is French and my Grandmothers family are Dutch, for all that Peckham is a truly Sussex name and my family line on my Fathers side haven’t moved more than 50 miles in 900 years.

It is very easy to criticise the immigrant population and easier still to pick out odd anecdotes, such as the turban-wearing motorcyclists to prove our point. But we should also be very mindful of the fact that the indigenous British race [if there is such a thing] have thought nothing over the centuries of colonising countries across the world and imposing their own values and customs on there unsuspecting hosts, further more we are still colonising parts of the world as we create ghettos in the Algarve, Portugal and France. It seems that the popular press feel that we should have one rule for immigrants to the UK but when we are the immigrants then a whole other set of rules should apply.

Lets not forget that the terrible atrocities in London on Thursday were no more to do with immigration than the Terrorist activities of the IRA, an IRA bomb never made me hate the Irish, what anger I had was for the individual bomber.

Further more we should not forget that Britain should be thankful to its immigrant population for its current economic prosperity. The Financial Times carried out an exhaustive study into the make up of the Uks GDP for the financial year ending April 2004, they found that the ‘non-indigenous’ population of the UK ie; the immigrant population, contributed some 11% of that years GDP amounting to some £2.5Billion. However this sector of society accounts for only 9% of the total population. In other words our immigrant population are either harder working than us, or higher earners, or both, whatever, they pay more Tax than the average indigenous Brit so we can’t acuse them of sponging off the state.

All I’m saying is, it is important to make an effort to get to know the facts and have a view of the wider picture before making a judgement on a whole group of people purely on the actions of a few. There is a bigger picture here and however tempting it is to suggest otherwise, there are no quick fixes.

There we are, that’s definitely my lot on this subject! [Wink]

Mike

Posted by Dan Lail (Member # 18) on July 08, 2005, 05:15 PM:

Mike, moved more than 50 miles in 900 years? This definately sounds like a set for a Python script. [Big Grin]

Carry on.

Posted by James N. Savage 3 (Member # 83) on July 08, 2005, 07:04 PM:

Hi guys-

I'm very glad to hear that all of the forum family is o.k. (have we confirmed this?)

I'm so sorry for the losses that did occurr there and pray for quick healing for the hurt.

Nick.

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on July 08, 2005, 07:04 PM:

Mike, loved your post (the second one). [Smile]

I can only echo all of your sentiments with a big "Yeah." Well said [Smile]

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on July 09, 2005, 02:57 AM:

Mike,

Do all your family members look strangely alike [Big Grin]

Me, I just hate everyone. Much easier that way I think! [Razz]

Oh, except you guys of course [Big Grin]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 09, 2005, 03:24 AM:

My last point on this one too, my points certainly arnt meant to be racist in any way, (how can they be as i said my dad was a greek cypriot) the best way for me to sum up my point is this, this country does need to look at how many people from other countries actualy can fit in here, this is a small island with 60 million people, New Zeland and France are imense in size with a much smaller population and sooner or later something here will give. We are breeding our own grown terrorist who will and DO follow the policies of other countries, we are seeing the results now .
Couldnt help notice no one commented about some parts of Geat Britain banning the flying of our own flag so as not to offend others, are some people ashamed to be British and show it?
How about the Americans, I cant ever imagine that happening over there, Americans are very patriotic and i believe thats a good thing, and they too are multi cultural so whats the problem here,
BTW, how brilliant were our emergency services at responding, still the best in world i think reckon.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on July 09, 2005, 04:17 AM:

I sent this email to a friend on here yesterday and they suggested that I actually post it on the forum.

7/7

The troubles of yesterday were obviously very small in comparison with those that were suffered on the 9/11, but however many people are killed or maimed, it just shouldn't happen in what is supposed to be a civilised world.

They are predicting that the death toll will go into the hundreds as they are still pulling bodies out of the tube train wreckages.

I was on my way into work (by Motor Bike) at the time and actually work not far away from the area where this all took place. I have to say that at the time I wondered why all the traffic was going so slow and then of course I found out when I got to the lab and saw it on the Plasma TV we have in reception.

About an hour later the police told everybody to stay inside their buildings as they didn't know if the attacks had finished.
Our company got food in and eventually most people left by about 2 pm to try to get home without the now defunct public transport system.

There were three explosions on the underground which involved 4 tube trains on the circle line. The circle line just goes round London so you can get most anywhere by using the Circle line. Crippling this line has caused maximum disruption.

The city was very quiet today (8/7) and when I went up London's Oxford St to my Bank it was like being in London on a wet Sunday. The trouble with this type of terrorism (suicide bombers) is that just about anybody could be carrying a bomb and you don't know where they are going to strike next. Heaven's knows we don't want them to strike anywhere again not in London or any other city in the world but we all know of course that they will. I think these Suicide bombers have to be the most dangerous form of terrorism we have seen in our life times just like the ones that flew into the two towers. How they can think they are doing good in the name of Allah is beyond me.

Anyway just like New York, London will bounce back again proving that we brits are a tough race to beat and certainly wont be beaten by this type of Terrorism.

I feel sorry for all the families, like in new york, who have now lost their loved ones or now have relatives and friends who are crippled for the rest of their lives.

The Death toll this morning (9/7) stands at 49 with 700 injured but the police say that there are more bodies yet to bought up from the tube wreckages so the figure is going to rise.

Thanks for all the messages here on the forum, it shows what a close firendly knit group we are.
BTW The bus incident was virtually on John Clancy's doorstep and I'm pleased to say that he and his wife were at work at the time.

Thanks again, Kev.

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on July 09, 2005, 08:44 AM:

*having a somber moment of silence*

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on July 09, 2005, 09:45 AM:

The immigration problem in the US is much worse than in the UK. Great Britain is an Island, so it is relatively easy to check who is coming into the country. Not so here of course, where we have a 2500 mile northern border and a 1500 mile souther border. Millions of illegal immigrants have poured across the southern border with Mexico, and the Bush Administration will do nothing to stop it. In fact Bush want's to grant these illegal immigrants amnesty and the benefits of full citizenship rights. Why? Because US Corporations(who are large donators to the Rebublican party) are eager to employ illegal immigrants who are happy to work for a fraction of the wages ( and none of the benfits) of US citizens. And also Bush does not want to offend Mexican President Vincente Fox and Latin American voters in the US, who form a significant part of the Republican voter base. It is ironic, and hypocritical, of a president who is always expounding about his fight to make America secure, to turn a blind eye to this most obvious threat to our national security. The situation is so bad that private armed Vigilante groups have been formed in Arizona who patrol the border and turn the illegals back or have them arrested. I have no problem with immigrants, the US is a nation of immigrants and I am proud to be one myself. But let them go through the same lengthy process and scrutiny that I and every other European immigrant has had to go through. If they are here illegally, kick them out! Wake up Mr. President!

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 09, 2005, 11:01 AM:

Exactly, well said, and as you say, wake up and kick out the ones who are in illegaly (once there caught)however, welcome in the people who do it properly and are checked out. Like my Father years ago.
Those who openly support the scum who do these things terrorist campaigns, gather them up and kick them out, i.e, Mr hooky for one. Wasnt that long ago he was preaching terror on the streets of London, AND WITH POLICE PROTECTION [Eek!]

Hopefully this makes it clearer where i'm coming from.

Posted by peter booth (Member # 242) on July 09, 2005, 11:02 AM:

Hi,a big thank you to all forum members who have sent good wishes and support in the wake of the London bombings,I live 200 miles away in Yorkshire but we still feel it here,an attack on London is an attack on all all of us,already there has been an arson attack on a Mosque in Leeds and with a large Muslim community in West Yorkshire can see more trouble on the streets,similar to the Bradford riots a few years back happening.Lets hope that the police make some early arrests and charge the offenders if caught,instead of letting them go home again as has happened in the past,best wishes to all,Peter.

Posted by Chris Quinn (Member # 129) on July 09, 2005, 11:38 AM:

First i would like to say how shocked i was and relieved when i found out that no forum members had been caught up in the horror, i feel so sorry for the families and injured, terrible, terrible day.

What ever the politics, there is no excuse for the murder of innocent men women and children. I am sure that decent law abiding peoples of all race creed and religious convictions are appalled by these terrorist attacks, unfortunately there is no answer to terrorism, no way to fight it, no winning formula, there will always be terrorists with some cause they feel is justified by the killing of people.

Sad day it was.
Chris.

Better get back to the alien space craft before they miss me.
Chris.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 09, 2005, 02:32 PM:

It is good to release our thoughts among friends. This is a sound batch of chaps, and a wonderful forum.

For this, I am very grateful. This is why I feel so akin to what has happened in London, for it reminds me of my own experience on that Tuesday morning (four years ago), and for the many weeks that followed afterward.

I only wish to share of my own observation and experience.

I live in Albertson, NY. It's 23.4 miles = 37.6586496 kilometers from the WTC site.

On that day, I could view the devastation from the third floor school gymnasium, as the tops of both towers charred with flames and soot poured out, as I watched at the school which I work in Brooklyn, NY. The location is only 5 miles = 8.04672 kilometers from NYC.

In our local Church Parish, 20 families were affected. Either for those that worked there, or for the firefighters and police that live in the community that were affected by the incident.

For weeks, regardless of where you traveled here on Long Island, there were digital images of missing persons in local communities pasted to shop door window glass fronts, and a litany of blocked traffic jams filled with Police and Firefighters in their dress uniforms standing attention, in front of funeral homes, temples and churches. Thus it was not surprising to see a jam in front of a church at 5:00, on a Saturday evening.

The countless stories from teachers in academia, regarding unfortunate children sitting in classes, with the understanding that their loved one will never return home again.

It was a continual cruel reminder of the events, and something that I will never forget.

Thank you for listening.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on July 09, 2005, 06:14 PM:

I can understand what your saying. Today in our papers they were showing pictures of some of the people that were missing believed dead and I'm sure that will go one for a while yet. Terrible.

Kev.

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on July 10, 2005, 06:15 AM:

Hello to everyone from Russell Square.

Having had to break through a police cordon area to get home on Thursday I can report that this area of London is still shut. The Piccadilly Line (tube/underground) is impassable and the tunnel that took the blast is in danger. It is safe to assume that trains will not be running along that for some time. It will be impossible to replace the Piccadilly Line from north London by any other means until it reopens possibly in the distant future. We can only hope our engineers manage to remember how to build tunnels and get it fixed quickly. Public transport within the capital will therefore be a bit of a disaster until then. Let's all hope our lunatic leader Ken Livingscum realizes he can no longer tax people for driving their car into the centre (but that's another story).

From here up to King's Cross over half a mile away is virtually all cordoned off. We had the bomb go off on the bus on Upper Woburn Place just north of Russell Square by a few hundred yards and a bomb on a tube on its way from King's Cross to Russell Square. It's a bit of a no go area and the police sirens still haven't stopped. There's never a dull moment living in the centre of London.

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on July 10, 2005, 09:00 AM:

[Frown]

[ July 12, 2005, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: Tony Milman ]

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on July 10, 2005, 09:17 AM:

John, as a matter of interest does the Pic line go under your building? Unless I have my sense of direction wrong I would have said that it did.
BTW I would have been more worried about the 35mm machine.
Kev.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on July 10, 2005, 10:05 AM:

What really hits home, similar to Michael's experience, are the scenes of photos on walls, bus stops, windows, etc. of loved ones who are still missing. There appear to be bodies in the debris at the King's Cross station that can't be recovered yet. Here in New York, photos with "Missing" and "Have you seen this person?" were posted everywhere right after Sept. 11th and each photo tears at your heart. Almost 4 years later, 48 people are still unaccounted for.

Doug

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on July 11, 2005, 02:39 AM:

The Piccadilly Line must go under our block. If it doesn't, it's very close.

I was going to mention the GS-1200 being safe in my last post but thought better of it. I wasn't particularly worried as my main machine is still with Mr. Parsons.

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on July 11, 2005, 06:38 AM:

The main thing is that you and susie are safe and sound [Smile]

Kev

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on July 11, 2005, 05:16 PM:

Sorry John,

I am afraid that even in such dire circumstances I am forced to take refuge by deflecting away from the horror of the situation, no offence meant to anyone. I guess it helps to get me through the situation.

[Frown]

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on July 12, 2005, 02:07 AM:

No need to apologize Tony. Even in the worst of circumstances I'm still light hearted and always prepared to look on the bright side and if necessary have a laugh. Where would this country be without people like you? It's the British way and I wouldn't change it for the world.

The whole area is still boarded off. They now have traffic going the wrong way around Russell Square but someone's moved all the cones separating the traffic so saw a car nearly take a bike out head on this morning. And that was with only those two vehicles on the road! Wait until later.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 13, 2005, 10:27 PM:

How is the current situation around Russell Square a week after the incidents as well as the condition of the tubes? Those blokes that wreaked the havoc, should have the book thrown at them.

I'm hearing that the PM wishes to create dialog?
It sounds so cheerful, but this is beyond reasoning and dialog.

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on July 14, 2005, 02:28 AM:

The Russell Square area is still shut from 20 yards south of the tube station all the way up to Euston about half a mile away. I walk out my door in the morning, say "good morning" to the nice police officers on duty and then skirt the cordon to walk to work in Paddington. The cordon barriers they've put up around the direct areas affected by the bombings look pretty substantial.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 14, 2005, 05:22 PM:

With all of the substantial activity since a week ago, and is evidenced at your own door step, that people are moving about as best as possible. Once again, the resolve of the British spirit is upbeat.

It is also with the hope that government here in the USA and in Britain will not speak rhetoric, and will indeed protect all law abiding civilians for all humanity and not the select few.

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on July 18, 2005, 04:53 AM:

The hoardings around Russell Square tube and Tavistock Square are coming down. The bus has been or is being removed from Tavistock Square and is going off for further forensic investigation.

I don't suppose the Piccadilly Line will be re-opened for some time which will cause major inconvenience for hundreds of thousands of people but for the most part everything else in the area will almost get back to normal. There just won't be quite so many people about with the resultant loss in trade to all the local retail businesses.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 18, 2005, 09:40 PM:

John the aftermath of this incident is far reaching in many ways. I do hope that businesses will not loose their shirts (close shop permanently) and people will not loose their spirit in the shock of almost a fortnight, this Thursday. I take it from your post that the Piccadilly line, took the most severe blow?

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on July 19, 2005, 02:28 AM:

Looks like it. Each track is a single tunnel on that line and I did hear that the tunnel in which the blast occured was in danger. But that story got hushed up pretty quickly.

Londoners are sadly fairly used to things like this so there's no danger of the people losing their spirit. There's more danger of the opposite happening and we just become too bullish and too full of bravado.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 22, 2005, 02:54 PM:

Britains Police are working hard and deserve wonderful support for the tremendous task and challenge they face in protecting the public.

Michael

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on July 22, 2005, 05:20 PM:

Well at least this latest try didnt succeed. It has come to light tonight that the latest explosives didnt go off as they had deteriorated. The police were saying tonight that they believe the latest bombs were probably made at the same time as the last bombs used on the 7/7 but they have to be used straight away as the chemicals go off. As this was a couple of weeks a go they didnt explode this time arround.....thank god for it as there could have been another real disaster this time on the Northern line.

Kev.

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on July 22, 2005, 06:11 PM:

So it's true. [Frown]

Another attempt... I, too, am glad it failed, though. This morning I watched the news and got confused, couldn't tell for sure whether they were talking about the first attack or a new one. (Darn media always talk things to pieces without getting to the point, i.e. "what just happened.")

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 23, 2005, 05:56 AM:

Looks like some other countries are agreeing with some of my previous points about how soft we'v been with allowing the scum element the same rights of speech as the majority of good people. Maybe now Blair and his doughnuts and the idiots of the human rights movements will wake up. Anyone who stands in front of a mic and tells us its what we deserve should be de-ported.
It makes me mad to hear anyone giving these people air time or support [Mad]

Hopefully, unlike Spain, these scum will not tempt the Government to change its polices. Once you do that they've won.
Best wishes to all in London who are doing everything they can to carry on as normal. It cant be easy. Hopefully those clowns have left a treasure chest of clues to much more than just the sad no-minds who carried the backpack bombs.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 23, 2005, 11:54 AM:

Tom,
Indeed your points are well established. However I'm not holding my breath that Mr. Blair and his followers will ever wake up. They all need a check-up from the neck up. The same holds true here in the USA. When addressing the issues of attack, the only way is to strike back, and let them know that you mean it. I'm not blood-thirsty, but for anyone that holds the truths of modern civilization sacred, then civilized society needs to understand that these believers-extremists nearly conquered the world thousands of years ago through the means of the sword. This is not something that I am making up, it's not hate talk, it's only the historical fact. The west should not feel ashamed of the Historical colonization of Britain. We live and breath democracy that has brought and allowed the free thinkers that shaped today's modern world.
The 'Sir Issac Newtons' and men of Renaissance sacrificed great lengths, to share their gifts with the world. It was the 'Neville Chamberlains' that goofed.

This Forum is a discussion which is evidence of those 'Newtons', 'Galileos's' and modern marvels which we cherish. It shall not be bludgeoned from us.

Respectfully,
Michael

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 23, 2005, 12:50 PM:

I do agree with many of your points Michael, unfortunatley it is difficult to know where to strike because they hide in so many countrys. This one included as we have now seen. The biggest problem began in 91 when Mrs Thatcher decided that the extra day required to take out saddam was "not what they set out to do". It gave him 10 extra years to sort himself out. As for the extremists who are causing todays problem, where do we all go from here, Iran, N Korea, Saudi, Yeman? the list is endless anmd i see today they got Egypt. These scabs even kill women and children in there own Countries [Frown]

Unfortunatly the only way to deal with it as you say is to take the war to them no matter what before they do become stronger and stronger. If there minds are warped enough to blow themselves up,(how sad can one get) then if they are caught they must be executed. That certainly wouldn't happen here as, appararntly, we are too civilised, what a joke for an excuse to allow them to live.
Whats annoyed me recently is three British soldiers have been done for mis-treating prisoners, it didnt matter that they executed in the most savageway the many hostages they caught.

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on July 23, 2005, 01:09 PM:

That's a good point you bring up there, Tom, but the one thing that speaks for our Western civilized ways, of course, is that at least we give criminals, no matter how savage they are, their fair and due process. This is justice, and it's one of the cornerstones of who we as a society are. Yes, sometimes it's hard as we all get emotional and have our days where we would like to just run around and kill all the bad guys with guns in our hands - but if we did, would we then be so much better than them? In the end we're much better off being who we are by worrying about such seemingly contradictory things like the British soldiers being reprimanded for mishandling prisoners that probably deserved worse anyway. Now, back where those prisoners come from (I'm assuming they were from Iraq/Egypt/Sudan/etc.) they wouldn't even bother with that. "Let's just blow them up, and ourselves along the way so we can go to heaven!" ... Ugh.

I guess what I'm trying to say is maybe we ARE too civilized at times, as you say (I agree), but at least we are civilized, period. That's worth hanging onto...

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 23, 2005, 01:36 PM:

Jan that is very true. Oddley enough its a term many people use, you know, "why come down to there level"? I just wish the media would not keep putting there side of the story and demand more rights to all the different races that wish to move here. Welcome anyone from anywhere but please fit in with our way of life and not demand that we bend to yours. As i mentioned before, if you holiday or move to a foriegn country you MUST abide by the laws of there land. Here we just seem to give up more and more of the British/English way even to the point where in some parts of the country certain councils ban the flying of the Georges Flag as it offends the muslim community. If anyone is offended by that then they should return home and live. The bombing and the 9/11 incident(murder) is the extreme version of a given group telling us we dont like what your doing so eat this. That must not be allowed to win.
I was very saddened when in Spain the day after there train bombings the Government immediatly gave in to them and withdrew there troops. i suspect they belive we will do the same.
It is a pity the iraq war was so badley planned for the aftermath. Lets all hope it gets sorted soon so the UK/US and all the other troops can all go home.
Lets pray that Bush isn't stupid enough to have a go at Iran next. They always said WW3 would probably be over oil. Every time i see another suicide bomb go off in yet another country i get more nervy.

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 23, 2005, 08:22 PM:

Thank you for sharing,
I agree whole heartily.

Michael

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 27, 2005, 10:02 AM:

Praise for British Police in finding one of the suspects today.

Was this up and around the West Midlands area and close to the location
of Derann Film Services? [Confused]

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 27, 2005, 10:57 AM:

Not too far away, again i see the focus was to slam the police for the last two days for shhoting a suspect who was running away from them and onto a crowded train, also wearing a large coat,IN SUMMER. Imagine how they would have been blamed had they not have done that and he had a bomb. Unreal.
Todays papers (or rags) put it into a resonable context today,
It applies to to of these scum who were allowed asylum here some years ago, we took them in,. gave them the benefits and papers and now they want to blow us up.
The rest of my opinion is pretty much covered already
BUT, as to the point, Well done the Police and as far as i'm concerned please do shoot to kill. If your stupid enough to run away after being warned TUF.

Posted by Andreas Eggeling (Member # 105) on July 27, 2005, 12:58 PM:

.... now it is time to bring a comment to this topic ....
I agree with lots of comments here also with some of you Tom, but I don´t agree with the point of shooting the man from brazil .... Why does he wear large coat in summer? Perhaps he was poor man who can not afford coats for every season? Why did he run away? Because the police men were civil and not shown for every body as police men..... Would you stop Tom, if a gang is running behind you and shout? ...... The suspect in Birmingham was caught with a taser weapon and not shot, although the suspect wear a backback ......

Hope that the family of the brazilian claims ....

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 27, 2005, 01:37 PM:

I do agree he shouldnt have been killed outright, nor anyone for that matter, As i understand it they did shout warnings to him to stop, do bear in mind this guy shouldnt have even been here in the first place as his visa was a year out of date. I'm not saying people should be just shot at, but he knew he was being pursued, They would have shouted that they were police the same as any countries undercover police would do, he was on the London underground which was attacked twice in two weeks so how else could they react. As they said on our tv, they thought he couild have had a bomb,and explained that had they had just pulled him down with a chest or leg shot it would still have been possible for him to detonate himself.
They were mistaken and it is definatly very sad that am innocent person was killed. In this particular circumstance i cant see any other way they could have dealt with it. Dont forget, if these scabs arnt all caught they will almost certainly have another go. I'm sure in the states the Police would not hesitate to shoot. In fact the gun is the law over there. I wouldnt even trespass in the States. And in a way thats a good thing. All in all, i agree with the Police on this one. London IS under attack, (who knows where else is next).
The one they caught was ready to strike again by the sound of it.
Please dont read this wrong. I'm not trying to be all gung ho, i just feel that the Police in the circumstances did what they had to do. And so soon after the attempted bombings what would you have done? How would US police have reacted or any other force for that matter? I'm sure many people will now do everthing they can to bring them down which is sad as it will divert attention away from the real dangers.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on July 27, 2005, 03:54 PM:

Tom, your exactly right on this one. My son-in-law is an Orange County (Orlando) Deputy Sheriff. You cannot believe the flack the Police over here have to take from the Public and the press.
A few weeks ago he reponded to a call from a hysterical woman who said a stranger was in her back yard peering through the windows. He responded immediately and when he arrived he saw the suspect heading over the back fence. He put his own safety and well being on the line, and chased him over the fence and arrested him, probably saving the woman from rape or murder. And what was the thank's he got? Nothing! In fact the woman called the Orange County Sherrif's Department the next day and filed a complaint against him because he caused damage to her fence! Can you believe that! And this happens all the time. Guy's stealing cars (a la Rodney King) race through city blocks at 80 mph ramming other cars and endangering innocent peoples lives, and when they are finally caught after putting up resistance, they file charges against the police for abuse. I just don't get it. It seems like the rabble in our society get's more consideration than the people who are trying their best to do the right thing.

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on July 27, 2005, 07:04 PM:

This whole topic is beginning to get depressing...

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on July 28, 2005, 02:49 AM:

Don't forget when it comes to the Brazillian who was shot 8 times in the head he hurdled the substantial passenger barriers in place so he could avoid putting his ticket/oyster card through and then ran for the train. He was being followed because the police were tipped off about the estate he lived on. There were suspected Muslim terrorists there (apparently) and this chap inadvertently stumbled into the wrong place at the wrong time.

Why did he run from the police? Could be he thought it was a gang after him, but more likely he knew if he was caught he'd be deported as he was here illegally. A catalogue of errors but please don't blame the police for their actions. Those involved, if they're like the vast majority English people, will feel absolutely distraught over what happened - even if the victim had have been a Muslim terrorist, killing someone is just not something any of us can live with easily.

So please stop bashing our police. At the moment they're in an impossible situation. Whatever they do will be wrong. I for one won't listen to anything the press have to say about it until all the facts are known. Currently it is all hearsay - and that goes for some of what I've put in this thread.

Posted by Andreas Eggeling (Member # 105) on July 28, 2005, 03:20 AM:

John, Tom,

what I mean is, if someone changes the rules, it should known to everybody....

Ok, I ask following .....

1. Was it announced in the british press or television that people will be shot, if they run away and it seems that they are terrorists? [Roll Eyes]

If not ...
2. What happened, when the brazilian would have had knew that rule? [Frown]

Or, did he knew that?.....

I know the British Police only as friendly Bobbies, thats the reason why I have had written the first comment.

"I for one won't listen to anything the press have to say about it until all the facts are known." That´s right and I will wait for more informations too.

Paul, I would say nothing if that innocent man was shot in USA, because it would me surprise no more where little childrens are treated as big criminals if they help they brothers and sisters to urinate or where 5 years old children exhausted in handcuff when they are not dear in the kindergarten.

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on July 28, 2005, 04:53 AM:

I did say that I wouldn’t post on this subject again, but I thought I would have to come out in support of the British Police. It is rare that Tom and I agree on issues relating to terrorism and immigration but on this particular point I fully concur with what Tom [and John] have to say about the dilemma the Police found themselves in, it was truly a no-win situation.

In the battle against terrorism snap decisions absolutely have to be made, hesitation could well cost more lives. Had this man actually been a terrorist and the Police hadn’t taken the decision to shoot to kill, he might easily have detonated another bomb and caused death and injury to many, many innocent people, in which case the Police would be heavily criticised for not taking the necessary action given the information that they had and the actions of the individual.

In my view, the worst thing to come from the bombings is the report that attacks against Muslims in the UK have increased by 400% since the July 7th bombings, proof I suppose that the bombers are succeeding in their quest to play on the fears and ignorance of the small minded, Daily Mail reading, Union Flag waving Fascists and turn relatively peaceful communities against each other.

They will succeed only when the malaise of hatred has grown to such an extent that neither community will remember that it was actually the evil actions of just a few that have led to a break down in the understanding between the communities that make up this great country.

If anything, these horrific events should make us more inclined to build bridges in our society and try to understand the lives and interests of our fellow citizens regardless of their origin or appearance. Only then can we hope to truly defeat the terrorists.

Mike

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on July 28, 2005, 11:13 AM:

Quite right Mike. There is a further problem here though and that is there seems to be a sizeable percentage of Muslims in Britain who either condone the actions of the bombers or will not condemn the actions of the bombers.

I find that disgusting. Just when we need to Muslims to sort out the nutters in their midst quite a number of them are going on television, radio and appear in the papers causing more problems.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 28, 2005, 11:40 AM:

Yeah, i do see common sense prevailing here. Oddly enough the Brazilian wasnt a muslum yet one of the first reaction was from the muslum community and human rights tossers saying that now the muslums fear for there lives???? Why is this so when the man shot in the head wasnt Muslum.That said i think we can all re-cap and say,
Very best wishes to all in London who now have to wonder when or where will the next strike be,

I take my Hat off to the Police,(and all the emergancy services) and do agree with the shoot to Kill in this circumtance,
As we now know the Guy was here illegally for over a year, I wonder if the rest of his mob where planning on coming over. And how much did he manage to sponge off our state. That last point goes to all those scum who support these people despite this Country taking these people in from all over and giving them council homes,(something i could never get) money etc. All those who support what is going on,As John Majour said, round them up and send them back.
Point of interest here, Did you all know that back along on Italian TV some guy went on air supporting some nasty movement over there and he and ALL his family were rounded up and de-ported.
John is right about the amount of people being given time to air there support for these clowns. It does so happen to be that these people are Muslim so if they feel they are being persecuted then they have to do something to give these people up as it it they who harber them. I see the Mosque is a good hiding place for them as told on the news.
Thats not being racist, its a fact.
BTW, i see the Brazilian was under suvailence for some time so he wasnt innocent at all. He cetainly didnt deserve what he got but he ran, ONTO A TUBE TRAIN, over the barrier and paid the price.

Posted by Andreas Eggeling (Member # 105) on July 28, 2005, 01:14 PM:

I accept the argument about the dilemma the Police found themselves in, but I can´t accept your argument Tom that it was o.k., because the Brazilian was illegally in UK.

The one would deceive their husband.
The other one would live illegally in a country.
And other one would collecting illegally 8mm prints.

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 28, 2005, 01:50 PM:

Adreas, Sorry i didnt mean it in that way.
No he certainly didnt deserve to go the way he did, i was makeing the point that in this situation the Police had no option. He ran over the barriers, they shouted for him to stop and made it clear they were police but when he ran onto a crowded train they had to act and they certainly did. It also makes sure that anyone else in the future Will stop.
If the man had gone back when his visa ran out he would not have been killed in this way and would indeed be alive today.
Hope ive put it a little better. (altough any killing cant be put in a good way)

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 28, 2005, 05:17 PM:

I'm changing on this every minuite. I'm typing this add-on as i watch question time on the BBC (as usual giving the shit views of people slaming our Police over the killing). The more people who use the stupid term "excecution" over this suspect the more i do side with my decision that this was right. What the hell is getting into people. What do you think they should have done? Gees, the panal has a human rights bimbo carefully choosing her words to say every one has a right. How about men WOMAN AND CHILDREN on the tubes, in Egypt, in Iraq itself and other countries, did they have rights?
Sorry, but this thread for me on this is going back to what i said before, i cant be swayed over this, i wish everyone in London all the very best and take my hat off to the police and other emergency services but if people dont wake up and stop going on about,"the muslum community living in fear" then there will unfortunatly be more.
How about the English community living in fear. I dont think i've heard that yet.
The enemy has done a very good job of moving into this country.(& the States) They now have all there own rights, protection, speakers councilers etc and now they have what they want some of them are clearly unhappy with OUR western way of life/beliefs and are now bombing us in the most cowardly and wicked way. Woman and kids means nothing to these people.
Anyone in this country who is or has watched this program which is driving me mad every minute take note of how the BBC has once again ensured that muslins and asians outnumber the majority British people in the tv audience to ensure the general british view is minimised.
Not too sure about within London but down here most people think more like i do than what the TV put out.

Before anyone gets the wrong end of the stick it is not a racist view of Muslums but a fact. Many of the bombers are British born muslims who have been Brainwashed, others are also Muslums who have been given everything by us after seeking asylum here and have turned against us. How else is anyone suppose to think? I work with two and even though they dis-agree with what has happened they do make point that "its bound to happen". Is it? Religion, once again is the cause of problems. They never mix in harmony and most wars around the globe are caused by it.Al Quida are an extremist religous fantaical group and will never stop until they rule. It will never happen but unfortunatly many people will pay the price.
How many more Bombers need to get away with murder before the BBC will stop giving them air time and support and people wake up. If someone is a suspect bomber about to release his/her load then that person must be taken down in any way possible.
Unreal. [Mad]

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 28, 2005, 11:23 PM:

I teach school children, and as much as I have learned it is that you will never know what a child is thinking. We teach respect, we show respect, we model respect, and that does not imply that the child will grow with these values.
Hopefully something will stick. Hopefully if dialog is opened, people will become educated, and more inclined to understanding.

The new testament portrays Judas as the culprit to turn Christ over to be arrested. Wasn't he listening all the while? What did he hear?
Forgive the analogy, but it's the adage at times which is 'Damned if you do, and Damned if you don't.

This is not to sound negative, but all we can do is hope for the best.

The Police and all of the people of Great Britain are walking on a hair trigger, just aware to do only the correct thing for the safety of all. Indeed, reaction is high to see how a person is dramatically shot down. This touches everyone, is upsetting. But let's not forget that by and large, that police officers are people:human beings that are trained specialists only trying to do the right thing that they were trained to do. To serve and protect. Period.
This statement does not marginalize or minimize the sanctity of a human life, and pray that we are never reduced to face a situation as this.

I remember a few years ago, waiting to see the changing of the horse guard in London, there was a woman police officer asking the crowd to move behind the white line.

What seemed to be a 13 year old white (perhaps North American?) child, looked at her and showed disrespect by ignoring her. She pretended at first not to notice and then repeated herself, asking him to move back, to clear the way for the horses all a while he gave her a gaze of 'so What' and as if to imply 'Are you talking to Me?' In reality, this group squeezed in late in front of other people that were already behind the white line. She clarified that the horses needed to come through, and he needed to step back in safety. Some of the people that he was a party to, moved back slightly, but he did not budge. She did not hand cuff him. But his behavior on vacation (Holiday) seemed disgraceful in a host country.

Needless to say, she placed verbal pressure upon him to get him to move.
He did not move immediately, and it took some time,..... but he MOVED. And yes they spoke english.

I do not know what has happened to the good sense of people in the world?
Maybe I'm just a scaredy cat, that is afraid of authority! [Confused]

Michael

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on July 29, 2005, 01:22 AM:

Tom, I also watched question time but it seems as though we saw two completely different programmes.

The one I watched showed a broad cross section of society, both ethnically and socially mixed, it was managed so that all views were heard. You have to begin to realise that there are other views than your own and that the people who have those views probably feel as passionately about them as you do yours, they do also have the right to express them. It doesn't make them right, either yours or theirs, but both must be heard and a dialogue must be encouraged in order to bring communities closer together.

I feel the BBC did a good job of representing all sides to this arguament and perhaps the fact that you were strongly at odds with several of the speakers should tell you that this was a balanced and not a strongly biassed discussion. If you always seek out like minded people with whom to discuss these matters, you will only become more and more angry and intransigent, which I think from reading your posts is what is happening.

I share your view about religion, as an atheist I would love to live in a peacable world where their was no religion, but as a libertarian I respect everyones right to their own religious beliefs, hard though it is...

Mike

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on July 29, 2005, 03:06 AM:

Are you sure you're atheist Mike? Personally, I'm agnostic. Means I don't believe but I'm open to persuasion if when I drop dead I suddenly appear in heaven (or something like that). As much as I don't believe there's an all powerful entity that created everything this universe we inhabit is a very strange place. Who is to say the universe is not some sort of being? Is consciousness just a part of that universe?

Like I said - agnostic.

I didn't watch Question Time. I don't watch anything on the BBC any longer as the left wing, pro-Labour bias is all too obvious since the Hutton whitewash. I can't see a time I will ever think it is right that anyone feels murdering people can be justifiable.

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on July 29, 2005, 03:59 AM:

John, point taken, I guess I’m an agnostic. I like to think of myself as a humanist ie; holding a strong belief in the potential good of human kind. I certainly don’t believe in an all powerful being, God or Gods. But I respect the right to the beliefs of those who do.

Like you also, I don’t believe that it is ever right to take a life. But In the case of the terrorists I can see us all to easily playing into their hands by allowing them to achieve their goal by dividing our communities and setting us against each other, effectively fighting their battles for them. The way to truly frustrate their efforts has to be through dialogue, discussion and moderation. Stirring up more hatred and xenophobia will simply make matters worse.

I suppose I’m a bit of a lefty labourite at heart. [Wink]

Mike

Posted by Tom Photiou (Member # 130) on July 29, 2005, 11:28 AM:

This topic has actualy shown since it started how sensible people can talk without getting heated.
Many points of view here from many people.
I'll sign off now on this subject and say thanks to all for keeping cool on what is a very difficult subject.

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on July 29, 2005, 11:33 AM:

Tom, great to hear you say that. If you do I will too, I don't think we will ever agree on this issue but I'm sure we can both agree to respect each others views and stand points.

As Jan said, this thread is really starting to depress me.

So, Mike signing off [Wink]

Posted by Andreas Eggeling (Member # 105) on July 29, 2005, 11:35 AM:

Tom, Mike

"never say never again" [Wink]

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on July 29, 2005, 12:51 PM:

Hat's off to the British Police in capturing the four bombers in just 2 weeks. Meanwhile, here in the US we still have'nt captured Bin Laden in 4 years!

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on July 29, 2005, 02:12 PM:

John

So glad to hear your an agnostic and I do hope you are right because the thought of bumping into you in the afterlife (if there ever was one) is a terrifying prospect [Big Grin]

I say that because my wife would then find out how much a super8 film cost me!

I am not really bothered about religious beliefs of any kind but I can't help but ask the question if the boot was on the other foot so to speak and roles were reversed in a muslim country would the essentialy white christians of the UK be tolerated in the same way that this country supports and encourages diversity?

I was on a tube for the first time on Thursday and Iadmit to being very nervous. what struck me most was the fact that the carriage I was in comprised all white peole in the middle-sort of huddled-and all non-white at the ends. I was the only super 8 collector there!
[Wink]

If tolerance is required then it must apply across the board and not to one section of the community. If that section does not agree with this then they can duly go forth and find somewhere they will be more comfortable in. Just look at this forum, we allow both 16mm and 8mm US and non US, black, white, pink, purple and any other dammned combination (except Steven Wainright LOL) you can think of.

there, that feels better

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on July 29, 2005, 02:31 PM:

I, too, smile at the fact that all of you are able to have these sensible and quite intelligent discussions on here. [Smile]

Anyway, I don't have much to add as it's all been said, really - but to be honest I, too, was under the impression that the police more or less executed the Brazilian who was running away. Turns out I didn't really know what exactly happened until I read Tom's posts, and now I'm agreeing with him that they did the right thing. Well, perhaps not "right" but they did what they had to do, they did the only thing they could do. It shows that the media (again) failed miserably to properly inform at least one person - me - about the true nature of events and the decisions made by their participants. Somehow I wouldn't be surprised if the media was indeed responsible for all the lack of understanding and the angry feelings between cultures and societies, at least partly so.
Well, that's another two cents out of my pocketbook - but I'm ready to close this chapter if there are no further objections. [Smile]

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on July 29, 2005, 03:35 PM:

No objections here. But at least Tony made me smile [Smile]

But let's not forget the innocent that have been killed, or their families that will suffer with their loss of kin. [Frown]

It's just fine that we can all sit here and speak in rhetorical pharases and sensibilities. This is not an attack upon the good people here on the forum. Indeed there are not any easy answers or solutions to this situation. But a solution must be found, and someone always will be dissatisfied with the conclusion.

Indeed there is sadness here. [Frown]

It is an outright attack [Mad]

on our 'sensibilities'
by senseless individuals- That do not make sense, and that will never convene at a round table. Even in the the epic Lawrence of Arabia, T.E. Lawrence was not able to bring the various tribal desert camps together.

Forget about Religion and Agnostic belief, but if once and again Life imitates art, just remember the last few lines of the script from Bridge Over the River Kwai?

Colonel Nicolson: 'What have I done?' [Confused]

The Madness, MADNESS!

Two classic films that speak the truth, and masterfully directed by:
Sir David Lean

Michael

Posted by Jan Bister (Member # 332) on July 29, 2005, 05:01 PM:

Michael,

spoken like a true film fanatic! NICE way of steering this discussion back to the topic we all love. Wow. [Smile]

Posted by Michael De Angelis (Member # 91) on September 11, 2005, 12:24 PM:

On this day of remembrance of 9/11, best wishes to all people that have been touched by the anniversary of today's events and the events in Bali, Madrid and London. May people around the globe, embrace the sanctity of life, and freedom that we cherish without any animosity.

Michael

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