8mm Forum: NEXT BFCC

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Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on October 29, 2008, 04:03 AM:

The current details for the BFCC scheduled for 23rd May 2009 are up on the 'Next Event' page of www.bfcc.biz. But we thought we should let everyone know exactly what is going on as far as we know it.

A lot depends on the Ealing Town Hall but there may be a silver lining to the current economic disaster... The lunatic scheme to do away with the car park and stick a supermarket in its place may not be viable given that building firms are now finding it hard to borrow money, so perhaps this may not happen after all which should certainly give film collector conventions a longer lease of life.

Whatever happens at the Town Hall Mr. Wilton wants to keep things going a while yet and will be talking to the current management of the previous venue to see if it is financially viable to hold the event there. We'll all just have to wait and see what happens but the crux of the matter is this; the hobby needs the support of as many of us as possible at the moment whether it is the BFCC, Big Screen Time, the NFCC (Blackpool) or just the most recent releases on Super 8 from Derann and Classic. If anyone can get to any of the events please make the effort just in case we lose the opportunity in the future.

Posted by Christopher Way (Member # 1328) on October 29, 2008, 06:07 AM:

There is no doubt in my mind that we would all wish for the continuation of the BFCC at Ealing. I am sure there are numbers who wish to attend. However, in the financial climate we refer to, it can become expensive for us to get to the venues.

It is my intention to attend the next BFCC event next May. I am planning to bring 3 other JR members in my car (so please do not lose the Car Park).

Although the event usually fairs well, I feel that it needs to expand in the direction of having more of the DVD Format, Digital, as well as the present formats, and subjects it already has. It is evident that in time Home Cinema, and the Film Industry will be digital, we cannot hold back, we must move forward. I believe this will open up the audience and visitors bringing more to the events.

Regards, Chris

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on October 29, 2008, 06:35 AM:

Chris, I don't know if you have attended the Blackpool N.F.C.C, but the Digital side has been presented for a couple of years now with Adrian Simmonds of Derann including a digital projection show in the programme of events.

The attendence of these events, as John says, is of paramount importance in keeping the hobby going and this subject has been covered in other posts on this Forum.

However, with the looming ecconomic "crisis", collectors will have "priorities" but, attending the Events (putting bums on seats - so to speak) is the only way the organisers can justify future venues.

I appreciate that some collectors may think it a waste of time attending, if they cannot buy. However, if you can afford the travel costs, then "turn up" - you will not be dissapointed, it will be a "Grand Day Out"!

At least you will have made the effort to ensure the "next event" being organised, where, hopefully, you may be in a better position to get that "bargain".

Posted by Mal Brake (Member # 14) on October 29, 2008, 09:47 AM:

Chris,
Digital presentations sometimes are a small part of the BFCC's when Keith Wilton compiles a specific programme. In the past we've had items about Warner Bros and Fox music and the composers plus other bits and pieces.
I believe I'm right in saying - John Clancy will correct me if I'm wrong [Smile]

- but Keith has stated in the past he will not use digital if the same item is available on real film.

With regard to the next BFCC, due to personal circumstances I don't think I will be able to attend. The October event was possibly my last one unfortunately.
Mal

Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on October 29, 2008, 10:29 AM:

Hi Mal,
Sad to hear you won't be attending any more shows. [Frown]

One half of me would like to see more DVD presentations the other half says it would be the beginning of the end of what is a unique event. So i think as long as Messrs Wilton & Clancy can keep it going and are able to, then it should be left as it is. There is always Tadley, they do DVD presentations as well.

John, I hope that your right about the builders, to many bloody supermarkets anyway. Lets hope that we will still be visiting Ealing next year and for many years to come.

Chris.

Posted by Jean-Christophe Deblock (Member # 792) on October 29, 2008, 01:27 PM:

Hi everyone,

It' would be very sad if the BFCC should close the door.
It's about 10 years that I come from Belgium specially for this event.
And generally, I find a lot of interesting films of all kind and of all format.
So, I hope that I'll be able to come another 10 more years.

Regards,

JC.

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on October 29, 2008, 01:28 PM:

Mal,

That's bad news indeed. [Frown]

We didn't get a proper chance to chat at the last BFCC because I spent all my time at the table. I hope you are able to make the trip again, you're part of the fixtures and fittings!

Mike [Cool]

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on October 29, 2008, 02:19 PM:

Mal,

Really sorry to hear you'll no longer be attending.

I enjoyed meeting with you. Your presence will be sadly missed.

-Mike

Posted by Christopher Way (Member # 1328) on October 29, 2008, 04:25 PM:

I have not attended the Blackpool NFCC. One because of distance, and of course costs. At todays financial restraints one as to warrant the costs to ensure it is viable to attend such functions. I have had to turn down a number of other association events because of costings of getting there and staying there. It is my intentions to visit sometime, and soon I hope.

Regarding the BFCC. I understand completely that initially at the outset of the BFCC it was based around reeled film. However with news of reeled film forever decreasing, and the move forward is digital, then I feel it must be represented. There are a number of Home Cinema fantatics out there who use DVD/Digital imaging and filming. If this format was amongst the programme continously, as well as at the stalls, then it is obvious to me that more would attend, thus keeping the BFCC going, but at the same time moving forward with the times. It seems silly to suggest Tadley, when we are trying to keep Ealing going.

Anyway, as I said before, it is hoped that we can make attendance next May at the 57th BFCC.

Regards, Chris

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on October 29, 2008, 04:55 PM:

Mal,

Sad news [Frown]

Hope your OK and that we can bring the BFCC to you - Chris will be taking s8 footage next yr

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on October 29, 2008, 05:45 PM:

Personally speaking, I would hope that the BFCC will remain primarily about film.

Film is, after all, the essence of the hobby which we are trying to keep alive.

DVD's can be purchased in any high street shop and viewed on any TV [Razz]

-Mike

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on October 29, 2008, 06:03 PM:

I think bringing in stalls based on memorabilia, posters and soundtracks would be first, before DVDs. There are specialist dealers in soundtracks on LP, for instance, that could perhaps be invited?

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on October 29, 2008, 06:12 PM:

Well I have never been to any conventions in England unless someone can buy me the fare, [Big Grin]

however I am involved in ones out here, adding my tuppence worth, is that film should always be number one, the day digital takes over people will loose interest "big time". DVD and video projection is ok only to a point "a small one at that", it has a nasty habbit of killing off, the goose that layed the golden egg "interest in film, that is, and eveything that goes with it".

Graham.

Posted by Christopher Way (Member # 1328) on October 29, 2008, 06:51 PM:

I can not believe I am reading your comments, and the negative attitude towards DVD and Digital. Yes, everyone to their own, but we have to face it, it is the way forward. How long do you think your reels of film are going to last, and already it has been in the news that in respect of some film gauges will disappear eventually.

I am somewhat amazed at comments such as "The day digital takes over, people will lose interest big time". Get a life Graham, Digital is here, and will be here long after reeled film has gone. Digital users will be the people who keep film events going. It is ludicrous to think other wise.

Everyone wants to keep the BFCC and NFCC events going, but are not willing to make changes, or add technology. What happened when it was only 9.5, then came along 8mm, then 16mm, then 35mm then 70mm. Did we all turn round and say, "The day this takes over will be the end", no we did not, or this forum and others would not be here.

DVDs are not just for television. That is a self centred opinion. There are many many projectors on the market that show DVD on a large screen. Indeed, if you look at a DVD/Digital set up, the Home Cinema is no different, except the projection.

Wake up, the world is moving.

REgards, Chris

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on October 29, 2008, 07:27 PM:

I am planning on attending the BFCC again next May. Everyone that I have so far attended has been an enjoyable and memorable day for me.
Mal, I hope we will all see you again next May, but if you can't make it up to London and, as you know I will be staying near Cardiff, perhaps we could meet for a chat at your home one afternoon during my visit.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on October 29, 2008, 08:29 PM:

Yes Chris

I am wide awake to what is happening in the world.

So here is a little story. I was involved in a previous convention a friend of mine with a mint home cinema had just completed a really nice short film on 16mm filmed on the stunning west coast. I was so impressed in this film in every way I suggested we use it in our weekend programme we even laid on bus to get everyone there well the film was a big hit the quality of the 16mm print was stunnning, if it had been shot on video the quality would be less and so would be the interest [Roll Eyes]

.

I also have a very neat home cinema and lately we had a film evening the kids that came along that night made a... bee line... to look at my Ernemann 2 35mm projector, one such person was our 15 year old cinema projectionist he was over the moon running that 80 year old projector that night, and guess what my Panasonic PT-AX200E hanging from the ceiling wasen't even looked at, the interest in that thing was zero.

I am employed as a "Head Cinema Projectionist" and over the years have witnessed the wonderment.. yes.. the wonderment and joy to the many young and old I have shown through the projection room, such is the interest in.... FILM.... projecting that we have many young kids applying for jobs many wanting to be projectionists.

If conventions in England do come to the stage "I hope not" where all you can come up with is to line up a VP and put in a DVD and press.. play..."boring"... so be it, best of luck.

Graham.

PS. In reply to your... "Get a Life Graham"..I will refraim myself to comment this time [Mad]

.

[ October 29, 2008, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Graham Ritchie ]

Posted by Patrick Walsh (Member # 637) on October 30, 2008, 01:54 AM:

Hi
Like Graham I am looking foward to our convention here in the next few weeks, I hope that no video projection is used as it ruins the atmosphere of the event, I own a cinema and always run 35mm prints and like Graham's cinema the public are always impressed with the projection box and they go away knowing that alot of effort goes into screening a film and not just someone pushing play on a dvd player, heck if I had my way I would be running 20 min reels with changeovers with carbon arcs!
(the theatre is currently using a single 35mm machine with large 12000ft reels)
I hope the BFCC gets more attendance in the future and that film will always be the main feature of the convention.
Pat

Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on October 30, 2008, 02:00 AM:

I would say that Graham has had a very good life, and your comments are not helpful.

The BFCC will carry on being unique and if that means it has to die a death being unique, so be it.

Out of interest, Mostly all the films you see being bought and sold at the conventions will still be around after the new dvd i bought at the weekend has degraded and ended up on the rubbish heap.

Chris Quinn.

Posted by Paul Tivy (Member # 836) on October 30, 2008, 03:29 AM:

I think the current balance at the BFCC is about right. Digital projection has been a feature for a while now - there were two digital presentations out of eight at the 56th - any more and we'll have to rename it the BF+VCC! Also, not every stallholder exclusively sells film. I saw plenty of memorabilia, dvds, vhs, laserdiscs this time and there always has been.

I brought down a couple of friends who don't collect film and they bought a book on Tony Hancock and a photo of Laurel And Hardy. What they were most impressed with though was the demonstration of lenticular colour film.

Best wishes,

Tiv

Posted by Kevin Clark (Member # 211) on October 30, 2008, 03:36 AM:

I will certainly be attending the May '09 BFCC and as many more as Keith and John are able to organise into the future. This month's BFCC was as always a marvelous event and real value for money (£6 for 7 hours entertainment in London on a Saturday = BARGAIN!) with an excellent mix of real film, film memorabilia and DVDs for sale by the dealers in attendance.

Regarding the suggestion of changing the shows to include commercially available DVD projection as a priority over film, - would suggesting a vintage car show changed to displaying modern day vehicles rather than classic and vintage cars be a good one? - of course not - so hopefully sense will prevail and the BFCC will remain film centered, with video projection used as a method of presenting the excellent documentary features produced by Keith and his colleagues.

I have collected Super 8 & 16mm films and equipment for nearly 30 years now, and projected DVD on many different video projectors at home since 1998, recently incorporating HD projection into my system too, so feel qualified to state I am not 'in the dark' regarding modern cinema and home cinema technology, I simply feel it already has sufficient exposure in AV magazines, the many online AV and DVD forums, in high street TV shops, at specialist AV dealer showrooms (ie: Derann AV, Sevenoaks HIFI etc) and at the already long established UK AV technology shows such as CEDIA, and its place is not at cine enthusiast film and memorabilia conventions such as the BFCC.

Kevin

Posted by Christopher Way (Member # 1328) on October 30, 2008, 05:21 AM:

Firstly, I apologise to Graham for my outburst, but I get so frustrated when members feel I am trying to rid the network of reeled film. I too love reeled film regardles of gauge, but it is a known fact that film tape does detiorate, and in recent news, as this gauge was mentioned, 35mm will be out of ciruculation in the next 5 years or so.

All I am trying to say is that Digital Cinema is in the making. Main stream cinemas have already changed over, and more will have to in time to come. Therefore it is only logical that more emphasis should be given to Digital Home Cinema. Not a take over, just a better viewing.

I congratulate Graham on having such a following of young people, some who would like to get into the projection business. However, have you told them that in cinemas this will be out in a few years time. No one wants to see such things as the BFCC go out of being, but to give the impression that DVD/Digital enthusiasts are a minority, or not wanted, is wrong. We wish to see the BFCC and NFCC continue. Many, if not all have said that both need more attending, so why not open up another format of filming, and get those numbers attending.

It is like the majority of you are saying over my dead body.

I personally could not afford the costs involved of buying projectors, reeled film and all the other equipment needed, but I could afford a DVD projector, and I have many DVDs. It does not mean that I enjoy the films any different, surely the emphasis is on film regardless of how it is seen. By the way, I beleive a DVD will last a lot longer than reeled film, I think Chris you must be referring to VHS tapes.

Anyway, I intend on being at May's BFCC, and I intend on buying anything along the Digital lines. It will be a sad day if this sort of thing is not available because of a time warp. See you all in May.

Regards, Chris

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 30, 2008, 05:54 AM:

What's "film tape"?

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on October 30, 2008, 05:54 AM:

Hi Chris,

With all due respect, it makes no difference to Film Collectors whether or not the cinemas eventually convert to digital projection.

Personally, I will be sad to see it - but it is a whole other topic, and has nothing at all to do with Film Collecting ( other than, possibly, 35mm collectors).

8mm and 16mm prints are not going to dissappear just because the cinema industry uses digital projection.

Therefore, it is not at all "only logical that more emphasis should be given to Digital Home Cinema".

-Mike

Posted by Mike Peckham (Member # 16) on October 30, 2008, 06:28 AM:

Chris, with the greatest of respect, I think you are completely missing the point.

Firstly, you should be aware that probably the majority of members on this forum project digitally along side reel film. Digital technology is not new to us many of us have been projecting with it for some time.

The 8mm forum is not about cutting edge technology but that is not to say that the members have their heads in the clouds and think that cine will be with us forever.

The majority of people who visit the 8mm forum do so because they want to get a cine fix, people like us love talking about cine, collecting cine films and equipment and using it in the way it was intended. We also, for the most part have tvs, DVD players and projectors and digital cameras.

Digital tv and projection is main stream, it is possible to go to your local branch of Dixons and see all the equipment you could wish for, you can buy DVDs pretty much anywhere and everyone is familiar with it. There are any amount of internet sites and forums that discuss home cinema but for those of us who, as part of our home cinema enjoyment, want to lose ourselves in the world of cine from time to time, this is a great place to come. Incidentally, you will notice that people talk much more passionately about cine than they do about digital projection, and forums such as this that encourage discussion on both formats will, on the whole, invariably see the cine threads running on much longer than the digital ones.

It might be useful for you to visit a cine event before advising people on how to run them better. The BFCC has a certain magic that comes of hearing projectors in all gauges running on stalls all day. Film collectors love to look through films for sale and enjoy the experience of checking them for condition, holding the first few frames up to the light and giving the box a good sniff. The projection area at the BFCC is a truly magical place and it draws visitors all day to look at the projection equipment in use and to chat about their own projectors and equipment.

There is naturally a desire to hold on to as much of that as possible and the fear of diluting it with digital media and run the risk of it becoming just one more home cinema show where the magic of reel film doesn’t exist is a very real one.

Chris mentioned above that the BFCC is a unique event and it would be better for it to finish as a unique event than for it morph into something commonplace. I have to say I agree with him.

If you haven’t experienced the magic of cine and don’t share the love of celluloid with film collectors, your comments about pushing forth into the digital world will continue to be misplaced and ill received. It would be a little like joining a forum for button collectors and tell them that zip fasteners are the future! [Big Grin]

Mike

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on October 30, 2008, 07:11 AM:

The dictionary definition of "film" is -

quote:
photographic material consisting of a base of celluloid covered with a photographic emulsion; used to make negatives or transparencies

"Film" does not mean a shiney silver disc. This is a digital movie medium - not film. Yes. the two mediums compliment each other but, let's not forget the "Chicken and Egg" scenario - in this case, "Film" definately came first.

As for the content of the conventions I think the clue is in the titles of the conventions - B.F.C.C and N.F.C.C - where the F.C is short for FILM COLLECTOR's, not B.D.V.D.C.C.

Posted by Colin Robert Hunt (Member # 433) on October 30, 2008, 09:18 AM:

Wow What a nice number of views about the BFCC and this has revoked a a good responce. Reading the threads and highlighting the last one from Mike. I agree very much on Mike in what he says. I have been collecting film since 1968 and attending convention from the very start. Chris you need to attend the conventions as Mike has said to see and experience how things are. I can understand that to keep things running and for these conventions to continue. We need to keep the attendances up and for people to make the effort to attend these events. My self I have a DVD projector, but still run film. Mike you are right that you can go into your local Tesco's Curry's etc and see digital anytime. Film for me seeing real film projection on a big scale and this is the Conventions. And it's the inter action of the shows and meeting fellow people as well. Film will go on for quite a time and hopefully the conventions. We need to keep attending and support Ealing and Blackpool and the people who make this happen. Hopefully some of the 8mm members will join The Jubilee forum because there is a lot of differant topics to input in. Film sections on the Jubilee forum need people from this forum to input there vast experience and knowledge so we can all keep these forums alive.

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on October 30, 2008, 01:37 PM:

Without trying to have a go at anybody here but at the same time risking sounding big-headed, I've had video projection in the home for 10 years now. I probably project more DVD and laser disc than I do film but it just ain't the same. We've had this discussion numerous times and the upshot is that this forum is the success it is because the members love film. Occasionally we get someone along who has relatively recently discovered video projection and gets carried away. But however good video projection gets it is not a hobby, it is a pastime. Real film is a real tangible hobby and that is what the BFCC exists to serve. If it became a video projection event then you can count me out.

Thank you for the suggestions on how to diversify the BFCC for the future but really chaps, don't you think we'd have tried everything by now. Mr. Wilton and I are not the usual sort of clueless idiots y'know! There may be a bit of memorobilia on sale at each event but specialists in memorobilia are not interested. We first started trying to get them along well over 10 years ago and of course attendances are far lower now so the chances are slim unless a privateer suddenly turns up.

Personally I would like to reduce the amount of video projection at each event but we don't just stick a commercial DVD in a drive and press play - no, these are professionally compiled programmes aimed at entertaining film collectors. So there!

The point of this thread was to try to make people aware that we are now at risk of losing collectors conventions and the way to keep them going as long as possible is to get along to them if at all possible - all of them, not just the BFCC.

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on October 30, 2008, 02:06 PM:

I too think Chris Way is missing the point. I have a quite expensive video projector and blu-ray. It's great. But I've had a long interest in cine and I want to continue that. I think it's good to have events and a forum about that. Chris is a bit like a man going to a Steam Fair and saying, 'well, what are you guys doing? It all went diesel-electric years ago!' D'uh! They know that ! They travelled on diesel-electric to get there. The event is about the interest.

Oh, and Chris, I presume you have HD and blu-ray and are dumping your DVDs to the charity shop because BD is the way forward...

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on October 30, 2008, 02:13 PM:

I didn't want to start in on this, but Christopher's comments made me sit down and write.

I don't feel it makes sense to say that because digital media is "the future", the shows should be altered to have video more prominently represented.

I say this as someone who has not had the opportunity to attend, living in the US, but the shows, like this forum, are there to celebrate and keep alive a CERTAIN FORM of home entertainment, that is, the film-based kind.
(I speak as a film collector who also has a large HiDef plasma, Blu-Ray player, and 5.1 Surround, and I work as a broadcast TV cameraman, just for perspective.)

None of us live in oblivion when it comes to the advance of digitally-based home media, but the message at the conventions, much like here, should be "...we still like to show film" and I gather that's overwhelmingly been the tone of it at the BFCC, and rightly so.
We have this board as our main meeting space, a few other 'sounding posts' and the conventions. The meets should reflect the outlook of the core constituency, especially in this case:

Chris, like many, talks about digital home entertainment. It already has lots of outlets for collectors and enthusiasts.
We, on the other hand, are keeping the one end of things alive that few others are: real film.
It is expensive, cumbersome, fragile, irrational...and we love it. That's the part where Chris misses the point: we don't care if it's "doomed" (as some see it) because we will keep the flag flying for as long as possible.
Because we know, once it is gone, it will never return. A unique way of home entertainment will have passed, and with it, a whole attitude and tradition, a sense of history, something that will never be able to be said about any digital formats, no matter how many incarnations we go thorugh.

An attitude of attention to detail, mechanical skill, patience, and the ability to appreciate a process that laid the foundation for mass storytelling some 100 years ago.

A tradition of truly paying attention, and knowing about the people in front of and behind the camera. With fewer and fewer people reading books, this is evaporating fast.

If one had to come up with a phrase to summarize this:

We are not about the future. We are about honoring the past by keeping it alive today.
I think that is perhaps where Christopher and some of us differ in our outlook regarding this issue.
In this case, to recall the famous McLuhan quote, the medium truly is the message.

Best,
Claus.

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 30, 2008, 03:03 PM:

Excellent, Claus!

When you think about what allows a small group to survive, it means they have to have their own place to gather, where they can support each other and keep the outside world from drowning them out.

A few years ago I was a member of a local canoeing club. We were small but we did a lot of good things. The kayaking craze hit and the Leadership of the club thought we'd grow stronger if we simply made it a "Paddling Club". They came flooding in and just by force of Democracy shifted the emphasis and then the leadership. Today it's a Kayaking Club because the old leadership sacrificed the goals of the club to the allure of larger membership. I haven't been there in years, there’s nothing there for me anymore.

What this means for us is we need our conventions to maintain and emphasis on film rather than become also-rans in the world of Video entertainment get-togethers. If that means someday there will be none, then for everything there is a season: it's the nature of life itself. You don’t save something by applying its name to something different and pretending nothing has changed.

It also means that we stay stronger if we don't dilute our numbers by spreading the conversation over many Forums. So I will continue my "Jubileeing" right here!

Posted by Simon McConway (Member # 219) on October 30, 2008, 03:14 PM:

I personally think the only DVDs at FILM conventions should be Keith Wilton's excellent compilations, and nothing else. I also think these stalls selling fridge magnets and the like are a waste of space. Stalls at a FILM fair should sell FILM and equipment. I agree with the other message; DVDs can be bought anywhere. But film can't be bought as readily. Next thing, we'll have stall holders selling their old shirts! One of the worst examples of this was at the late great Midlands Convention, excellently organised by Derann. A stall holder there had the scruffiest stall I've ever seen, selling ski-boots and old cutlery. This is true. It brought down the whole side of the room it was such an eye-sore! Fortunately, the likes of this guy are not common-place at Ealing...thank goodness!

Posted by Mark Mander (Member # 340) on October 30, 2008, 03:54 PM:

The hobby is about being involved with the whole process of getting that image on the screen and not just pressing a button ,I'm pretty sure that attendance would be down completely if it was just a dvd show.When you see the film shows at the BFCC it's still an impressive sight seeing that small gauge on the big screen and that's what it's all about.Yes dvd looks great but if that's all i want to see then i may as well stay at home or spend the day at HMV.... Mark.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on October 30, 2008, 04:53 PM:

I think the BFCC organizers have got it right. The emphasis is on film . But the special DVD productions by Keith Wilton add an enormous interest level to the show, simply because they are so unique and specifically aimed at film collectors. That is not to say that DVD afficianados will find nothing of interest there, on the contrary, I am sure many such people find the whole film scene very interesting and so should not hesitate to attend. There is no film vs DVD bias at the BFCC. Everybody there recognizes that nearly all film collectors are now also into DVD projection. Keith himself is, of course, very deeply involved with all aspects of producing specialist DVD's for marketing. But film is king at the BFCC, and it needs to stay that way.

Posted by Christopher Way (Member # 1328) on October 30, 2008, 07:36 PM:

I cannot believe that some of you are saying I do not see the point, or patronising me as if I do not know the difference. I am in no way implying that anything should be reduced down, dropped or whatever you imply from the BFCC. I was giving an opinion on the future of Home Cinema, and the technology that it brings, and a possible way of increasing numbers to the BFCC by adding this type of imput to the event.

It is obvious by your comments this will not happen.

It is comments like this from a member; "Fortunately, the likes of this guy are not common-place at Ealing...thank goodness!", that cause problems, and is uncalled for.

Thanks for your comments anyway, Chris

Posted by Yanis Tzortzis (Member # 434) on October 30, 2008, 07:59 PM:

I absolutely agree-it's a FILM,not DVD Convention; this doesn't mean DVD should be excluded,but not that it can take so much space and activities...
By the way,and in case nobody else has noticed(if I'm not wrong, that is),is the next BFCC coinciding with the May Bank Holiday wknd? And if yes,how much a chance is it that there'll be better attendance than last May? Was that date the only slot at Ealing Town Hall?

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 30, 2008, 08:09 PM:

When Simon said "Fortunately, the likes of this guy are not common-place at Ealing...thank goodness!" he was talking about the cutlery and ski boot guy. Sometimes it pays to read the whole post.

-but the "film tape" thing still gives me a chuckle!

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on October 31, 2008, 05:46 AM:

I think that was just pot luck Yanis, but hopefully it will work out for the best.

Sorry if this thread has ended up causing a bit of an argument, that's my fault. I have to admit I was a bit miffed with some of the suggestions which I shouldn't have been. The BFCC exists to promote the film collecting hobby and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I very much appreciate the effort everyone has made to attend our conventions and help keep the hobby alive. Let's face it, it's 2008 and film collecting is still hanging on by its fingernails - incredible!

Posted by Christopher Way (Member # 1328) on October 31, 2008, 08:17 AM:

When one has spent the past week in an effort to unite two forums with the same principles in mind, and at the same time offers suggestions and opinions, and only suggestions and opinions to increase attendances at the BFCCs. One does get slightly peeved off when one is being nearly accused of trying to kick out the reeled film side of things, or have a digital takeover. My emphasis was on increasing the numbers attending, and only that, not a takeover, thus keeping the whole network of Film Collectors going for a lot more years.

Incidentally, DVD, Blue Ray, HD, all methods of showing film, and collected by many. Why then does it not come under the auspice of Film Collectors. Just a thought.

See you at the BFCC, [Big Grin]

Regards, Chris

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 31, 2008, 09:33 AM:

Quote:

"Incidentally, DVD, Blue Ray, HD, all methods of showing film, and collected by many. Why then does it not come under the auspice of Film Collectors?"

Simple: no "film" involved.

Let's say you had a fellow who collected the great works of literature on microfilm (...for some bizzarre reason).

Is he really a "Book Collector"?

Part of the allure of collecting books is getting really old ones in good shape, maybe even with an autograph inside the front cover. As you start to get into later and later editions and then paperbacks and books on cassettes you are moving further and further away from that experience.

You can find an original RCA Victor Disc of Enrico Caruso, or get the exact same recording much cheaper on CD. One is a collectible, the other just a convenient way of enjoying the music.

Both have value: but one is not a direct substitute for the other.

PS: Somebody with a framed digital knockoff of the Mona Lisa on his wall is not an "art collector" either, and in this case the value is approaching zero!

PPS: Many people have lots of DVDs. Are they all film collectors? If not, then why not?

Posted by Colin Robert Hunt (Member # 433) on October 31, 2008, 09:54 AM:

Personaly I think the Ealing shows and the one's previous from the cinema at Northfield have been much better than the past conventions.well thought outprogramesand mix of shows that I personaly cannot fault All this takes a tremedous lot of effort from all the team and the well known names we all know involved to bring Ealing together. Again I saythat the balance is about right for film & DVD projection. But each convention is differant. A few years ago there was more lectures from varouis experts on Vistavision Technicolor 3D etc., We have had 70mm shows that was interesting to see these projectors in action. People like me have not seen cinema projectors much in action. I dont get much of a kick from watching a DVD projector running. Chris again wait till May when you go to Ealing, and then see whats's going on. What we should be doing is not attacking people for running film. I have read no evidence of any answers on this thread to get worked up about. I think everone has taken on your suggestions on what you say. The main thing is everyone must keep attendibg the conventions and pay at the door. There's always room for people to help out with setting up and clearing up. Blackpool for me is not always the option,but we do try to attend along with the Tadley one as well. If these events go then everyone will suffer, so we need to support as best we can. That goes with the film forums as well.

Posted by Keith Ashfield (Member # 741) on October 31, 2008, 09:57 AM:

Steve, do you think the terminology for DVD should be "Movie Collector", rather than "Film Collector".

It is a bit like a Philatilist collecting "Franked Mail" rather than Postage Stamps. [Wink]

Now I think we've got the subject "well and truly licked". [Big Grin]

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 31, 2008, 10:20 AM:

Yes, I could see a DVD collector being called a "Movie Collector", but not a "Film Collector". It's much the same as describing somebody with a bunch of CDs being a "music collector", but not a "record collector".

-One side is only about content, the other about content and the medium.

PS: My nephew is building a digital home theater, and I'm adding digital projection to my own before the 2010 Winter Olympics. I recognise the value of the medium, but the differences too.

Posted by Christopher Way (Member # 1328) on October 31, 2008, 01:29 PM:

I think it is an inevitable case of, we beg to differ. Films on reel are movies when viewed, projected or whatever, Films on DVD are movies when viewe4d, projected or whatever. I still cannot get it across to most of you that I am not trying in any way, nor want to bring down the business of Film Collecting, Collectors, or Collections. As I said, I made a suggestion, S U G G E S T I O N, that to increase numbers at the BFCCs, would it not be a good idea to add on DVD and Digital Film, Projection, etc.

You have in one or another all agreed that numbers are down, you have all agreed that numbers need to increase to keep the BFCC going. If after all these years you still have not found more to attend, the my suggestion is a feasible one.

It is obvious that a large number of you, in particular those who do not attend, do not want to increase the numbers. End of story.

I will still be there in May (if anyone wants to continue) [Big Grin]

Regards, Chris

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 31, 2008, 01:59 PM:

If you should happen to get film on your DVD, a little tissue with some rubbing alcohol will remove it nicely.

-they tend to pixelate and sometimes stall if you don't.

I'm afraid it's not as robust a medium as "film tape"

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on October 31, 2008, 02:23 PM:

One little thing that I would like to see introduced at future BFCC's is the use of name tags, so we all know who we are!

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on October 31, 2008, 03:06 PM:

Hi Chris,

I'm not sure that adding more DVD projection, sellers, etc. will have the effect of increasing numbers.

It may bring in more "non-film" collectors, but, my guess is that we would see a lot of the present attendees who come along for the Film aspect stop attending.

Digital projection and what constitutes a Home Cinema, per se, is simply not what BFCC is about.

-Mike

Posted by Christopher Way (Member # 1328) on October 31, 2008, 08:28 PM:

Steven I beg to differ, DVD are robust, moreso if looked after as much as a spool of film. Film deteriorates also.

Michael, the majority of those who attend the BFCC are there not only as film buffs, but to seek out and buy new equipment, film to show where, in their Home Cinemas. Like those we have seen on our forum and others.

I have tonight just got in from watching a fabulous film, probably one of my favourite epics, "Lawrence of Arabia". This was shown on a large drop down screen, with the Columbia logo showing behind the curtains with the intro music playing, and the curtains drawn back. The film went through to its intermission, and continued after a short break, with the curtains closing and opening. Just like a real time film viewing, showing, or whatever.

Of course is was not a film really, why, because it was on a disc, yes a DVD. Played from a DVD player, through cable to a projector, with sound through a surround sound system. This was shown at Eddie's, the Administrator of the Jubilee Regal, a professional cheif projectionist (retired), who knows a great deal, and has taught me a great deal about the same. He has not got one spool of film, all DVDs. Oh yes, and he was original a member of the Silvo Screen Forum, who set up the Jubilee Regal when the former closed down.

Good night gentlemen. See you at the BFCC, with a name badge.

Regards, Chris

Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on October 31, 2008, 10:42 PM:

The service life problem with DVDs is twofold:

Since they don't have the data redundancy that for example an Audio CD has, surface defects tend to derail the signal, and permanent defects become fatal. Hopefully as the data density increases this redundancy will be added, but the existing formats will never have it.

So a fingerprint on a frame of film may pass by unnoticed, but the same mark on a DVD can bring the show to a screeching halt. This is mostly what I meant by robustness.

The second problem is the planned obsolescence of video fomats and equipment that means entire systems of media and players are on their way to the dump from the moment they are designed. This means even if the new player is backwardly compatible, the new media won't be, so you are obligated to buy new players in order to see new recordings.

-This is not so much a matter of technical improvement as a marketing strategy to keep us buying more and hopefully on credit too. If we have a depression next year this kind of thinking is part of the problem: too much money borrowed to buy things soon worthless.

I also think this is reflected in too much of the hardware available. It simply doesn't last: it's not supposed to.

We in the world of real film avoid this issue of obsolescence by being as obsolete as we are ever going to be, and being cool with it!

[ November 01, 2008, 03:07 AM: Message edited by: Steve Klare ]

Posted by Christopher Way (Member # 1328) on November 01, 2008, 04:52 AM:

I appreciate what you are saying Steve, but at the same time have to disagree with your assumptions. For ages now VHS and associated equipment has been out of, withdrawn from the market as no longer viable, because of the DVD intervention, and its improvements over the years.

One must realise that if one is a DVD Film Collector, and chooses to show films through that format, then I would say, as I do, maintain my stock by regular cleaning of both discs, and equipment, and proper stowage of the same. No different than you guys do with your 8mm, Super 8mm etc. Myself, and as probably most other DVD users religiously clean the disc before and after use. It becomes a natural course of preservation.

Sometimes one does receive a corrupt DVD Film, but is that not par for the course in any hobby. I would not believe that some of you spooled film entrepeneurs have not received a damage film or a film that is not upto par in the past.

I would say the same strategy would prevail spooled film projectors if they were still be produced in the same sense. Designed to ensure that the customer has to buy another in the future. Again, as you know your system, we on the DVD Film front know ours. You can buy now, not from your High Street stores, but from reputable companies that deal entirely in the Home Cinema business, with associated information on what to buy, and what will last. You mentioned in a previous post about Blue Ray. What is Blue Ray, another format produced to give a better performance. In my humble opinion, it will be a long time before BR takes over from the normal DVD, and that most of the equipment available with HDMI, HD etc, will enhance the performance of a normal DVD.

Obsolete is a very good workd Steve. Having answered your post, I find the longer this goes on tit for tat, Reel v DVD, we are getting no where, and the whole initial subject of the the thread, BFCC as disappeared in amongst the differences. Therefore, I suggest to the administrators if I may, that this thread now becomes obsolete, and closed.

Regards, Chris

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on November 01, 2008, 05:01 AM:

I hope I speak for everyone here Chris when I say it will be good to see you at the convention. I think part of the reason a few of us have got a bit annoyed with the DVD aspect of this thread is because we've had a couple of trouble makers on here in the past saying things along the same lines but in a nasty manner. That is something we cannot accuse you of so belatedly I must say, I welcome your input. I don't think you'll find many of us agreeing entirely with what you're saying but you've come up with some good points.

DVD only will only have a short life compared to real film collecting though it remains to be seen what will replace it. Blu-ray just hasn't taken off whereas HD DVD looked set to take over. Who knows what will kill DVD in the end but I suspect it will be something similar to what is killing CD's. If that happens collecting films via digital media will become even less interesting.

I watched my 20 year old Super 8 print of Halloween last night. It's not a great print and the sound is adequate at best. But I loved running it as I have done just about every 31st October since purchase. If I'd have purchased it on any other media other than film I would hardly ever have run it at all. For me that sums up the excitement of film collecting... that and it's an excuse never to grow up!

Posted by Kevin Faulkner (Member # 6) on November 01, 2008, 11:41 AM:

Well Hello guys it's Mr Moderator here [Eek!]

No I'm not closing this thread at the moment and have been keeping a keen eye on its progress over the last few days.

Chris may I just jump in here and say that the point about projecting film seems to be missed.

When I was a young lad (many moons a go [Frown]

) I used to help out at our local flea pit on a Saturday. It was the magic of holding the film and listening to the 35mm machines purr away with the clicking of the maltese cross movement advancing each frame. That for me was the start of my film collecting hobby not just the film but the equipment which goes with it.
To date I dont have a VP (although I have been checking up on it recently with the though of toe dipping) because the magic is simply not there for me in the same way [Frown]

I can understand the points you make about DVD and the BFCC but once again a programme of images wouldn't be the same for me on what would look like a very clinical cleaned up picture without the whirring of the projector in the background.

Show me a good DVD where the producers have decided to leave the grain behind and have not added edge effects electronically to artificially sharpen the image.

For a lot of us DVD/BR is not the format of film we have grown up with and love so much and however much you go on about it we wont be converted from our beliefs.

I do believe that the 2 forms of medium can coexist and will do so for many years to come especially while origination is still on celluloid.

I have been a member of the Regal Forum since it started in its early days and I think I only ever made one post. Why you may ask? simply because it doesn't hold for me the interest that this forum does and your forum definitely has a slant to VP/BR/DVD as the home cinema pics show, as do the postings. This is not a complaint in any way and I have said many times that the Gen Yak section on this forum is for the other formats etc so I welcome this discussion and will only close it if it gets out of hand.

I would indeed like to see more tech info pass through this forum on VP etc as it is a real minefield but rest assured you wont change the minds of us "Movie Collectors" on celluloid (Film)". Movie Collecting" on round, digital, highly compressed discs is the more modern way to collect movies and will also be around for a long time to come in one format or another. Adding it to the BFCC wont have the same attraction for me and I'm sure many other Film (Celluloid) collectors.

Chris, you seem to be using the term Film when I think what you really mean is Movie. Movies can be collected on both film and disc but the BFCC is really about movies on Film which is why it uses 35mm, 16mm and super 8 to do the shows. Where this forum is concerned yes it's mainly film but please do include Digital in the Yak section as I'm sure there are members who will find it interesting.

Lets have no more arguments about all this but some interesting topics instead on these digital movie collecting media.

Thanks Kev.

Sorry if I was waffling again [Embarrassed]

Posted by Mark Todd (Member # 96) on November 01, 2008, 11:53 AM:

Well said Kev, the two go together superbly, but the funs in the fiddling.
Best Mark.

PS I`d do that bit of dipping as VP is great for amny obscure or unusual titles to be actually projected up there.

PPS I`ve been offered a few nice cheap VPs by a decent chap around £140 and hes a top bloke, if interested I`ll send interested folks his email.
Best Mark.

Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on November 01, 2008, 11:57 AM:

One final comment from me, with Kev's blessing. I was in my local electronics store today and they had one of those big displays advertising and promoting Blu-Ray DVD. They were showing some movie from a BD player hooked up to a 42 ins LCD TV. I thought the picture looked absolutely awful. Was it sharp? yes. But the color was so oversaturated and garish, and the picture was so clinically flawless with actors faces looking smooth and artificial like plastic - I'm explaining this badly, I know, but it just did not look real to me at all. It certainly was nothing like watching film, that's for sure.

Posted by Christopher P Quinn (Member # 1294) on November 01, 2008, 12:39 PM:

That is well said Kev, It is as you said the equipment and everything that goes with it.

Chris, I am quite happy to talk about digital with you as i have a VP set up as well and have many questions about the latest technology and DVD releases, what's coming up, what best player to have, the pros and cons of DLP V LCD.

But, I still want my fun with the old celluloid film, and all the bit's that go with it, editors, splicers, lenses. Best cleaners, best way to store, best lamp... And on it goes. I don't care about the faded film with tram lines, as long as i can watch the projector running while keeping an eye on the film, and i do mean it that way round. [Wink]

BTW I have seen Super 8 round John's that is as good, should i say better than 1080P. [Eek!]

Chris.

Posted by Claus Harding (Member # 702) on November 01, 2008, 12:50 PM:

Paul,

Just to touch on your impression in the store: the mode all flat-screen displays are in when on the sales floor is called 'vivid' mode (or a similar term.) It means that brightness/contrast/chroma is hammered to the maximum to catch the eye. So, yes, they look horrible.
My Panasonic 58 is set up correctly, and looks quite lovely, with subtle colors and deep contrast. It can be done, but you won't see it in the store.

Claus.

Posted by Christopher Way (Member # 1328) on November 01, 2008, 06:30 PM:

You took the words from me Claus. My LCD screen I recently brought gave a different picture in the store, compared to when I set it up at home. What Claus has said was also said to me by the retailer when we took delivery.

I have taken screen shots from my television, and placed them on the Jubilee Regal, feel free to look. I will take some more and bring them to the BFCC in May. Just straight forward pictures, no computer enhancements.

Regards, Chris

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on November 01, 2008, 06:31 PM:

I second that on how store set ups are. Terrible. The same goes for getting a good VP demo. I've found one has to do it oneself. You can get VP and flat-panel TVs to look quite cinematic... of course how can one do that unless one has seen a lot of film? I use 16mm as a guide for setting up VP. But it's amazing how many people have no 'eye' at all and can't tell chalk from cheese when it comes to the moving image.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on November 01, 2008, 10:12 PM:

There are many interesting posts in this thread but if we've moved on from the BFCC to video set up I'd appreciate someone starting a new thread on that topic!
Thanks.

Doug

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on November 02, 2008, 03:46 AM:

So just to bring things back to the BFCC, yes Chris, I'd certainy be interested in seeing your pictures.

Keith's LCD video projector used at the conventions was a multi-thousand pound jobbie a few years ago and gives a phenomenal light output. The screen brightness is the reason that projector is used as opposed to his far superior 3 chip DLP. It's set up to look as close to film as possible but I'm sure many will agree with me that the best video projection at the BFCC is not as impressive as the best Super 8. Blu-ray will undoubtedly change that but isn't it amazing that Super 8 was able to compete with the latest formats for so long. Sound is a different matter but we've demonstrated many times that Super 8 can still cut it there too.

My current Hitachi LCD video projector at home is set up to resemble film as closely as possible. What I find for the best results is the brightness has to be ramped down significantly. My HTI GS (when the lamp is still good!) provides as bright a picture.

Posted by Graham Sinden (Member # 431) on November 02, 2008, 04:33 PM:

So john, How do you set up a video projector to resemble film. Is it just the brightness?

Graham S

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on November 02, 2008, 05:10 PM:

Graham
It is quite complex.
If your watching a colour film you take a green marker pen and draw a line down one side of the screen.
If Black and white then you need to draw the odd fine black line

[Big Grin]

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on November 02, 2008, 06:37 PM:

Very funny Tony.

Again....start a new thread if you're going to discuss video settings.

Doug

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on November 03, 2008, 02:42 AM:

Graham, it's just a case of getting the brightness and contrast as accurate as possible. Keith has done this with the Liesegang LCD we use at the BFCC and the results are good but the ansi lumens output of that machine is so extreme that whatever you do it's always going to punch so much light through the screen that it's obvious it ain't film. The video projector I currently use at home has a fraction of the light output by comparison and by playing with all the options on it I've been able to get black blacks and white whites. That meant stopping the iris down which fortunately is a menu option but it took some time to find a satisfactory result.

It gives a sharper image than Super 8 most of the time but a lot of this is down to edge sharpening which gives a sometimes unnatural look. I picked up the 1984 PAL laser disc of Coma at the recent BFCC and this came with dust on the image, the odd scratch and a more natural looking image. I preferred watching that to a DVD. And laser disc was a bit special in a similar way to film - those big shiny silver discs were something for your money.

Posted by Tony Milman (Member # 7) on November 03, 2008, 05:10 PM:

Mr Clancy

Can't you read [Eek!]

Our otherwise patient moderator will have a dicky fit if you don't open a new thread [Big Grin]

Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on November 03, 2008, 06:11 PM:

One of these days, I'd love to attend one of these BFCC's.

I've always been curious of the numerous films that I have always wanted, that no doubt change hands constantly at these BFCC's!

Sob!!

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on November 04, 2008, 02:38 AM:

And that's the point of this thread Osi... if you don't do it now then you never will. At the moment we are hoping for the best that the Ealing Town Hall will not build on the car park but if it does we have to see if we can get a new venue. I don't think that is an ideal situation but Mr. Wilton has always come through in the past.

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on November 05, 2008, 02:30 AM:

John
I have just been looking through some of my FFTC magazines "still get them" its been 15 years worth of reading about the "BFCC" and never once had the chance to attend, 12000 miles just a bit to far."pity" I have always found it interesting reading over the years and if I lived in the UK there is now doubt in my mind about attending such an event on a regular basis " it would be great" and would like to take this opportunity to wish everyone involed in the "BFCC" all the best for its future.

One quick mention "of topic" is that over those 15 years of reading the FFTC, both yourself and Keith Wiltons films reviews were just the thing to help me decide buying a print or not, needless to say collecting Super8 has cost me a fortune [Big Grin]

and have enjoyed every minute of it, so once again thanks for all the effort that everyone has put into keeping the Super8 flag flying and I hope it may continue for a long time yet.

Regards Graham.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 549) on November 05, 2008, 08:00 AM:

....by the way, 35mm will still be in commercial cinemas around the world many years after 5 years time.

To date less than 4% of the worlds cinemas have been converted and the changeover has been going on for ten years.

David

Posted by Steven J Kirk (Member # 1135) on November 05, 2008, 12:34 PM:

I agree that 35mm will be around for a long time and I predict that collectors will move into it more also. Think of all the gear and films that will become available if and when public cinemas do go digital. That should fill a few stalls at the BFCC.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on November 05, 2008, 12:56 PM:

Yep, there will be gear and films aplenty - but, not the required space in the home for 35mm collecting. These prints take up a lot of space and 35mm projection equipment ( from a cinema) cannot just be packed away like your Elmos and Eikis.

-Mike

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on November 06, 2008, 03:11 AM:

And that is exactly why it hasn't taken off as a collectors format in Britain.

Thanks for your words Graham - at least someone reads 'Super 8 Film Review'. And just to keep this thread on topic, some of the reviews I've done have been based on a viewing of a release at the BFCC when I've seen them for the first time. Always have to run them at home too but that big screen at the BFCC certainly shows up the good, the brilliant and the indifferent in terms of picture quality.

Posted by John Clancy (Member # 49) on November 19, 2008, 06:29 AM:

The date of the next BFCC has changed already - it is now 30th May.

Keep your eyes on the web site.

Posted by Yanis Tzortzis (Member # 434) on November 20, 2008, 05:20 PM:

Good news-we'll hopefully avoid the disappointing image of a half-empty dealers' room...
....and hopefully the weather should be a bit summer-like [Cool]

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