This is topic The future of the Home Cinema in forum General Yak at 8mm Forum.
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Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on April 03, 2015, 01:12 PM:
I have made a couple of visits to the local multiplex in the last month or so, one visit to see The Imitation Game which is a superb film, and once to see The Second best Magnolia Hotel which I would rate as mediocre but saved by the classy presence of Richard Gere. Watching both films, which were projected on 4k digital projectors it occurred to me that my projected digital picture at home, from a Blu Ray source, was every bit as good. IMO there was virtually no significant difference in PQ. So I think it is safe to say that projected home cinema has now caught up with the pro's. How lucky we all are! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
But, coming over the horizon, or actually here, are giant 4K flat panel TV'S. The biggest one I have seen is an 85 ins diagonal Sony. The resolution is so good that you can sit 3 ft from the screen if you want to, and that sure gives an immersive effect similar to Cinerama.
So I am wondering if this is the wave of the future for home cinema, where these vary large 4K displays will be favoured over front projection. I hope this is not the case, because for me the cinema experience is defined by front projection in a dark room, not a flat panel with the room lights on.
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on April 03, 2015, 01:28 PM:
Your post is about digital projection and not cinema.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 03, 2015, 01:49 PM:
I'm seeing this at work. I am working in a facility that started out as a muddy field 5 years ago: everything is new.
Our older buildings have digital projectors in the ceilings of the conference rooms and a roll down screen at one end. The new building is just large flat panels.
I think it's plausible that someday theatrical "cinema" will go this way too: no projectionist, no projector, no projection booth..no projection.
-lotsa folks watching TV together!
They'll still dim the lights: they've been doing it in live theater for generations.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 03, 2015, 02:13 PM:
It has to be projected for me to call it home cinema. Cine or Digital now. After all, whether we accept it or not, cinema has changed irreversibly. There's no going back now Dominique whether us film fanatics accept it or not.
However for me, as said, it will always have to be front projected to keep the atmosphere and the experience the same as we have all come to know and love.
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on April 03, 2015, 02:18 PM:
Andrew, I know it is an endless (and useless) discussion but the fact it is projected is not enough for me. After all, a slide is also projected but it has never been called cinema.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 03, 2015, 02:38 PM:
Cinema is just a term associated with motion pictures at the end of the day Dominique.
It is easy to allow our loyalties and sentiments to all things cine to cloud the overall enjoyment of viewing motion pictures on a large screen in the dark.
I enjoy both methods of doing so but of course by choice, I choose Super 8mm.
I really don't have anything like the same level of enthusiasm for any of the other gauges, but that's just me I suppose.
At the end of the day, we all love what we are comfortable and familiar with, in my case that's Super 8 and HD Digital projection.
Partly the reason I love Super 8mm above the other gauges is due to the fact that Super 8mm had the most modern and sophisticated equipment out of the non professional gauges.
I like for instance the fact that you can produce a decent Stereo track from the gauge for example.
We are of course all very different in our likes and dislikes from the hobby but share one thing in common.
We all love projecting "real" film and long may it continue in whatever format!
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on April 03, 2015, 02:44 PM:
I wish I was like you. I used to love being in a cinema and at the moment the room became dark it was magical. Since they changed 35mm for digital, the magical part is no longer there and I go lesser than before to the what is no longer the cinema :-(
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 03, 2015, 02:54 PM:
My son's both prefer digital cinema ironically Dominique.
They used to find the "circles and dots" very distracting they tell me.
They do of course refer to negative sparkle etc but they've seen both and that's their opinion from the "pixel perfect" era they have lived in.
We on the other hand, are generally all of an age where bias comes into it just by virtue of the fact that we attach a certain very important aspect called nostalgia into the mix.
Who's right, who's wrong? ...I guess we will never know the answer to that one! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on April 03, 2015, 02:56 PM:
I don't think that the "movie theater" has a viable future because it is fast running out of the reasons it existed in the first place... those of 1. bringing to the public spectacles that they could only otherwise experience in real life, and 2. doing it on such a scale that it became totally immerseive to the audience.
The first has been slowly eroded by television... which has not been able to emulate the second by reason of the size limitations placed upon it by the technology. Now we have the situation where the "movie" industry gains strength by virtue of the fact that its output is of equal value to BOTH means of presentation, while home presentation increases in both scale and technology day by day, theatre presentation is actually reducing the size of its screening facilities and also of its audience seating capacities.
Result? When, in the not too distant future, home screen sizes become comparable in relation to audience size to theatre screen sizes (audio sophistication is already comparable) there will be no valid reason for the theatre to be more attractive to one's own home, where the SAME experience will be more conveniently available. And Digital home projection will play a part, whether the source be television broadcast, DVD or BluRay.
And the above is NOTHING to do with the HOME CINEMA experience of the enthusiast..... it's about "commercial" viability, which has ALWAYS been driven by supply and demand. Simply, if you already have the same product in your own home, why buy it again somewhere else? The remaining few who still see something different in theatre presentation will simply not be sufficient to support the costs of that approach. Even the draw of the live "telecast" of special events will inevitably be replaced by "direct to home" subscription services as theatres decline.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 03, 2015, 03:00 PM:
Very valid points Martin there it has to be said, as is already being seen to be the case judging by audience numbers in the multiplexes of today, let alone the future.
Posted by Dominique De Bast (Member # 3798) on April 03, 2015, 03:02 PM:
I have no problem being the last of the Mohican ;-)
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 03, 2015, 03:06 PM:
I am glad you dare to be different in this ultra sophisticated, ultra slick, ultra high tech modern world of ours Dominique! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 03, 2015, 03:07 PM:
I disagree,
People will always want to go out, so they will always need places to go to.
With a little effort, you can have a better meal at your house: certainly a cheaper meal, but people still go out to restaurants, just for the sake of getting out of the house and doing something different.
-It's the same thing.
You need neutral ground sometimes. You invite a girl out to a movie: that's normal. Invite her to your house to watch a flat screen: that's just plain Creepy!
Until the day comes they can do home theater with a simulated audience in the room, people will still want to "Go out to a movie". I saw "Raiders of the Lost Ark" in an old Theater in a small town upstate: the audience really got into it. I've seen that movie many times since: it hasn't ever come close.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 03, 2015, 03:10 PM:
Also equally valid points Steve. I guess we will just have to wait 20 years or so to find out.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 03, 2015, 03:19 PM:
Well, if you think about it, back when motion pictures started people were probably saying the day will soon come when live theater is doomed.
-it's still here because it has its place.
Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on April 03, 2015, 03:42 PM:
Yep, you can't recreate it economically in your own home.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 03, 2015, 03:56 PM:
If you accept the premise that the same production done as HD video on a home screen is "Just as good".
-Yes, you can.
(I do not.)
In just the technical aspects, home video should blow away actors on a stage: the sound is better, you can have closeups, location shots, you can be free from flubbed lines and prop and scenery malfunctions.
-but the difference for the audience is the experience of viewing it.
By the same token, if the movie theaters near me are any indication, theatrical cinema is going great.
-you want a decent seat, you'd better show up early.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 03, 2015, 04:01 PM:
Based on this topic of conversation, I would be interested to see if anyone projects really large screen sizes in the home and surrounding areas as a permanent set up.
I shall start a new thread me thinks.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 03, 2015, 04:05 PM:
How big is "large"?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 03, 2015, 04:14 PM:
Well to give pro cinema a run for its money I reckon it would have to be at least 18 to 23ft wide Steve.
That's almost the entire length of my living room! Lol.
Maybe one or two of you guys in Oz or The U.S. would have enough space even if us Brits live only in shoe boxes (by and large).
Posted by Brian Fretwell (Member # 4302) on April 03, 2015, 05:38 PM:
Of course the other thing about "Movie Theatre" is that the screen is further away and your eyes are focused at a greater distance than at home. This must make a (subconscious?) difference to the experience. Not to mention the other way that at home you don't have to think twice about asking other people watching to keep quiet. :-)
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 03, 2015, 05:43 PM:
-that depends on who else is at home with you!
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on April 03, 2015, 05:53 PM:
I was talking at the local multi-plex to the young lady that once did a lot of the 35mm projection. It seems that they are doing a roaring business, even in this world of big TV.
I agree with Steve that people will still want to go out, and going to the movies will still be a part of it. Its like the other day, I said to my wife lets go out for a coffee, she replied, I can make you one at home. I said.. but I like going out, its a "social thing" so we went out Watching movies at home has technically never been so good, but nothing could ever beat that shared experience the night I watched "Jaws" at the cinema when the movie came out, along with 1200 others screaming in the dark.
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on April 03, 2015, 07:15 PM:
Theoretically it is not the actual width of the scren that determines its visual impact, but the angle subtended by the screen at the eye. So theoretically, a 10ft wide screen at home viewed at a distance of 10ft should seem just as big as a 80 ft wide screen in a theater viewed at a distance of 80ft. This is the case for my 10 ft wide home cinema screen which objectively should look as big as my local multiplex screen when I am sitting towards the back of the theater. The angle subtended at the eye is the same, but the theater screen feels bigger because it is bigger, and you know that you are sitting in front of it as part of a large audience in a very large room. So no home theater is probably ever going to be able to totally replicate the feel of the real local multiplex.
Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on April 04, 2015, 03:22 AM:
Steve,
I was talking about "LIVE THEATRE" in response to your remark on it.
I am just about to upgrade my digital facilities to "larger screen" because I have a particular liking for "genuine" 3D movies. Slowly but surely the 1950s classic 3D movies are being restored... I now have six.... and they are something NOT available in the multiplex (perhaps on very rare occasions, if you are lucky to be near one?). Neither were they ever generally available in amateur formats, so no hope there. Large screen is what they were made for... and brilliantly made at that. I also collect the BEST of the modern offerings... NO "2D to 3D conversions"!!... with the accent on "genuine 3D".
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 04, 2015, 06:15 AM:
-and I responded to your remark on "LIVE THEATRE" right underneath it.
Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on April 04, 2015, 07:30 AM:
It then becomes a "movie", the attraction of which is that it is meant to replace what you CANNOT experience in real life. Fluffed lines and interaction with the audience are part of the experience: removing them detracts from the enjoyment.
But you CAN experience Live Theatre in real life (the clue is in the name); you have many opportunities limited only by the number of LIVE performances in various places.
A video in HD of a visit to Disney World cannot replace Disney World... etc, etc.
BUT.. it makes little difference whether you see movie "YYYY" in a movie theatre or in your own home IF you have created an almost identical experience with the help of easily available relatively "low cost" technology.... which is the point of my original post.
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 04, 2015, 08:07 AM:
-yet the experience isn't "almost identical" because of other factors you've left out.
For example there is the factor of a night out of the house and the interaction with the rest of the audience.
If you go out to a bar and have a bottled beer, the beer is the same, the bottle is the same, the temperature is the same.
Why on earth would anybody ever "Go out for a beer." if the technical merits are all that matter?
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 04, 2015, 09:14 AM:
plus, don't forget the sound effects of a hundred or so people all munching through an industrial bin sized bag of popcorn costing as much as half of your monthly mortgage repayments with the mandatory gallon of Coca Cola alongside!
You just cannot emulate that in the home environment.
Posted by Martin Jones (Member # 1163) on April 04, 2015, 09:36 AM:
Good point, Steve.... the very reason that Public Houses in the UK are closing in droves is because the UK public are electing to do their drinking at home. Its cheaper, it's less trouble, you don't need to drive.
The only ones who are "going out for a beer" are not "going out for a beer" ... they are going out to get very,very drunk (they say they enjoy it?), get high on drugs and cause endless trouble for others, including the Police.
Yes, it's an overstatement, but it IS happening. The supermarkets supply cheap booze.. the drinkers drink at home.. the demand drops in the Pubs.... and they close because there are INSUFFICIENT " goers out for a beer" to sustain them.
I was a victim of that syndrome: my business got more and more difficult to sustain because of the public buying their technology in the supermarkets. I closed in the end because I had INSUFFICIENT customers through the door.
And that's just one of the points I made,,,, when there are INSUFFICIENT movie theatre patrons left to sustain them (because more and more people are viewing AT HOME), the theatres will gradually close. It may take a long time.. but in my view it's inevitable.
It's VERY easy to see it from your own particular point of view, but if you expect things to just carry on because it's what you want personally, just remember that the supplier is in a position to judge whether there enough "YOUs" still left to sustain his business.
Thanks for using the "beer" analogy!
Andrew.... Just make a recording during your next (or last) visit, and play it during an Home Presentation. Simples!
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 04, 2015, 01:39 PM:
What?! No friendly beer after a long day at work?!
People have been predicting the end of theatrical cinema since the dawn of television, but 70 years down the road it still hasn't happened.
Why?
Because the industry found ways to innovate: stereo sound, cinemascope and for example.
Lately (like it or not) they've gone digital. This means you don't just see "movies" any more. Our local multiplex had an Elton John concert recently: shown live from Los Angeles. If they are smart about it they will continue to offer entertainment you can't get at home.
Like it or not too, the industry is being smart about cultivating a younger audience. When we go we see vast herds of teenage kids. One of the things that has to happen to kill the public cinema is for teenagers to think it's cool to hang out with their friends at some parent's house (not happening...)
I really hate to think of a time when we're all cooped up in our homes with nowhere to go and nothing to do but watch the 'tube, no matter how awesome the 'tube becomes.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on April 04, 2015, 02:03 PM:
Give me the scratches, wear and tear, splices and dirt any day of the week over digital! GRRRRR! ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on April 04, 2015, 03:56 PM:
The only thing missing at the local multi-plex of late, is the type of movie that I and the over 50 might like to watch. The place is more geared up for the teenagers and young kids which is a pity. I have suggested to them to cater a bit more for us oldies outside the school holidays but they wont.
Home cinema projecting either with film or digital does give you the chance to watch such movies, as an example "The Great Escape" "South Pacific" etc that otherwise you wont get a chance to see anywhere else.
The cinemas here, now they have the means with digital projecting, in this city need to be more pro-active in there range of product and not exclude the older generations like me. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by Guy Taylor, Jr. (Member # 786) on April 04, 2015, 05:12 PM:
I agree with all of Steve's points. It is still more enjoyable watching a movie with an audience.
Posted by Dave Groves (Member # 4685) on April 04, 2015, 05:15 PM:
It's interesting that so many towns having allowed their local cinema to close in the 50's/60's/70's are now pushing for re-openings, rebuilds etc. seeing the cinema as a lynchpin to re-development and rejuvenation of city and town centres. Multiplexes have given youngsters somewhere to go. How long this will last is debateable. Locally (in Southend) the Council has given the go ahead for a second Cinema. Where is the audience going to come from? The Cinema will survive even if last year it's audience fell by 5%. Watching t.v. is a major attraction that many will buy into. Most who do probably haven't been to a Cinema for years. The youngsters don't care about how the picture got on the screen. They're more concerned about the price of popcorn!!!
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on April 04, 2015, 05:30 PM:
A month ago we went to see Vertigo at The Enzian dinner theater. Of course, I have seen this film many times before, particularly the projection of the stellar quality blu ray in my own home. The digital picture quality at the theater was, I thought, about the same as my own, But I can tell you that I enjoyed the film much more, due to the fact that it was in a real cinema with a very appreciative audience.
I think today's younger generation does'nt have a clue as to how going to the cinema used to be, when the screens were huge and the audeinces numbered in the thousands. I think most of them are quite content to download movies to their IPADS.
Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on April 04, 2015, 06:19 PM:
Dave
I think getting kids away from becoming "couch potatoes" in front of the TV and "out" of the house, is really important for their mental and physical well being. Same goes for adults
Going to the movies with friends is only part of it, but anything that gets them away from the TV must be a good thing.
Graham
Posted by Steve Klare (Member # 12) on April 04, 2015, 09:26 PM:
We shouldn't forget that there is more to this than picture and sound on screen or even the movie in of itself: it's part of a whole night out. It's planning (and agreeing) on what to go see and where. It's going out to get something to eat, it's getting tickets and waiting to get in with the other people, it's the popcorn and the drinks. Only then it becomes the coming attractions and then the feature.
-even the ride home is part of it: it's a couple of minutes to share what it was all about.
You reduce it to just watching a flick on a screen pretty soon you're at home with your feet up on the coffee table: after a while you stop caring whether you have pants on or not...
(Perhaps the measure of a full life is having enough good reasons to wear pants...)
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 04, 2015, 10:40 PM:
Oh yes, you should always make sure you wear pants whenever visiting the cinema Steve thats for sure! Ha ha ha
That is unless it is a cinema just off Dam Square!
[ April 05, 2015, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]
Posted by Robert Crewdson (Member # 3790) on April 07, 2015, 05:12 AM:
You are not alone Dominique, there are still many of us who will remain with film until our dying day.
Posted by Andrew Woodcock (Member # 3260) on April 07, 2015, 08:08 AM:
"He said Dom, you'll be a film screening Boy, and that's the way to stay....Happy to be a film screening Boy, until you're dying day!"
I think we know a song about that!
Now all together now... A 1,2,3,4...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uRlgNF7uAU
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on April 07, 2015, 01:38 PM:
Course ... if I did want to go to the local Cinema, I'd need to take out a second mortgage on the home, toss aside college plans for the kids, just to afford all the tickets and the snacks.
Posted by Mark Silvester (Member # 929) on April 07, 2015, 02:41 PM:
Great post and respect for the topic.
I will always support, personally - front projection. As it allows the tweaks..the presentation, etc and being in charge of the show...the simple secret is in the following -"collective experience "....people together - a sheared experience. Laughter..drama..sadness and being scared is infectious...like the common cold..but it creates memories..that we love. In my case "big screen" entertainment...SHARED.... Great stuff - "Movies" sums MY hobby up...and that sums up all formats AND the collective experience.
Posted by Paul Adsett (Member # 25) on April 08, 2015, 08:28 AM:
Well said Mark. I don't think you will find anyone here who would disagree with your sentiments.
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on April 08, 2015, 12:41 PM:
Speaking of digital projection, I just heard a rumor that our only movie theater in town here, (Mountain Home, population 12,000), is going to close.
I had heard that they had switched at least one of they're two screens to digital, I don't know if they switched both, but I think I'll give them a call and find out.
If they are closing, I think I might do a little documentary on the closing night. I know that this has all been done before, but it's rather sad to see the high cost of digital (conversion) claim another casuality.
Posted by Dave Groves (Member # 4685) on April 09, 2015, 01:52 PM:
Osi, 12,000 isn't a very big catchment area. Is that the problem? If they've already converted one screen they're half way there. Have you got a picture of the place?
Posted by Osi Osgood (Member # 424) on April 10, 2015, 12:15 PM:
Yep, small community, but we were able to support a theater before ...
In fact, to update, the Theater did lose it's original owners, so while they moved on, "Take One" cinema bought the theater, so it's still up and running, and both screens have been digital for three years now.
When he heard that I run old school celluloid, he literally sounded desperate on the phone, asking for my advice, which I'm not sure I can give.
I like being as helpful as possible, but his question is, how do you get more young people to come to the theater? Apparantly, his matinee's are bombing.
The problem is, todays youth have so many other outlets for entertainment, that they can just sit at home watching TV, downloading HD quality films or cartoons, (sometimes before the film even gets to the theaters screen!), and so, while 50 years ago, a matinees for the kids would bring in lots of children, it's really hard to pack the theaters with kid's, families ect ...
Digital or not ...
Posted by Rob Young. (Member # 131) on April 10, 2015, 02:38 PM:
In addition to the image, don't forget about sound.
Dolby Atmos anyone?
Or DTS X?
Cinema going is a social event and as such will always remain appealing, even if only for younger people than ourselves. As is going to the pub. People like socialising.
Quote, "the very reason that Public Houses in the UK are closing in droves is because the UK public are electing to do their drinking at home. Its cheaper, it's less trouble, you don't need to drive.
The only ones who are "going out for a beer" are not "going out for a beer" ... they are going out to get very, very drunk (they say they enjoy it?), get high on drugs and cause endless trouble for others, including the Police."
Martin, with respect, what a silly load of nonsense.
We've lived in the area we do for 10 years now and knew no one when we moved here. Socially, apart from the very good neighbours we have met over the years, we now know many trusted friends that we met in the various local pubs by simply going out for a drink and having a chat.
I'm sorry, but the world can still be a nice place if you make the effort and don't read too many tabloids.
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