Bad audio on archive.org

[Adam Hall]

I was hoping someone with a little more technical knowledge about transferring motion picture film could shed some light on what may be going on at archive.org. It appears to me that virtually every 16mm movie that they have transferred to video, and there are hundreds of them, has what I would call wobbly audio. It is very noticeable when music is being played. Film after film by them is like this. Link below is just one example:

https://archive.org/details/atthelake_201705

[Claus Harding]

"Wow" is the slower-paced speed variation that can plague any analog device, be it film, turntable or tape deck.
The fast, fluttery version is called..."Flutter".
On this film, the wow is obviously quite extreme.
The film is well produced; the dialogue is cleanly recorded, so this was done by people who are pros. The music track is what sticks out like a sore thumb.

Some ideas:

1. Was it intentional for the opening music to be "wow"ed like this, to hint at conflict within the story? Not in this film, because it happens again with the incidental score music along the way, so it is a flaw, not an artistic decision.

2. The film had recorded music with lots of wow on the dubbed tape provided to the film-makers to begin with. No one could re-record, or replace the tape. Rather unlikely, but you never know...

3. In the editing and making of the print, there was a problem with the audio dubber machines, or a speed issue with the striking of the print itself, resulting in a print with a pronounced problem. That is possible. Could have been a bad run of prints, and maybe this print was originally a discard.

4. In the transfer to tape or digital, the scanner (or film chain, which is what this one looks like) may have had speed problems, resulting in a reasonable quality print with poor sound.

Don't forget when you watch Archive, the films come from everywhere, and a percentage are home/cheap transfers, sometimes done with a worn projector and a camcorder. An 8mm/16mm projector, at best, is just about stable enough for music, in terms of wow/flutter specs, but it doesn't take much to throw them off.
Thus, these problems can come from a variety of circumstances.

Some thoughts from me, I look forward to others chiming in.

Claus.

[Brian Fretwell]

Would uneven shrinkage in old films produce wow or would it be more flutter?

[Adam Hall]

If you look in the meta information on that archive.org page, it says the scanner was a Lasergraphics Scanstation on many of these. This is sort of shame because there are hundreds of movies that look like they were all scanned with this extreme wow in the audio. I had some of these films in 16mm and was thinking of uploading a transfer and noticed that it had already been done, so I did not. Now that I check the audio and think it all should be done again.