Help my online petition to get Kodak to manufacture Regular 8mm movie film again!

[Lupton Pittman]

I started an online petition to try to convince Kodak to manufacture Regular 8mm movie film again. Take a look - and if you are interested - please sign it!

Currently, most of the Regular 8mm movie film you can buy now is Kodak 16mm film that a company in Germany (Wittner Cinetec) buys and then they have a machine that punches (perforates) the required sprocket holes needed so that the film can be used in Regular 8mm movie cameras. I am grateful for them providing this service, but it would be even better if Kodak itself simply starts selling this film again themselves.

There are thousands and thousands of Regular 8mm movie cameras available on eBay for very low cost that, once cleaned, lubricated, and adjusted, would be able to make amazing movies as long as there is a good (and affordable) steady supply of Regular 8mm film available on the market! Please help me help Kodak see the light!

Also (and I know there will be many people who disagree) - the beauty of these older Regular 8mm movie cameras was that they were largely all mechanical (very little electronics). Thus, if you learn/practice to service your own camera, you can perform the cleaning/lubrication/adjustment yourself and possibly have a well working movie camera that will work well for years or decades to come! But, we just need Kodak to make the film again - and at more affordable prices - for Regular 8mm movie making to continue into the future!

Here is the link to the online petition:

https://www.change.org/p/urge-kodak-...vie-film-again

[Joerg Polzfusz]

Hi!

No offense, but I can give you Kodak’s standard answer for Double8 and DoubleSuper8: they will tell you that the demand is not high and constant enough to produce such niche products (without filing insolvency a few months later). Then they will either give you an FTO-number with a minimum order of 400 daylight reels (when you are lucky) or one of the two master roll lengths. And when you try to assemble orders from those who signed your petition, then you will find out that 90% of the signers will refrain from any order when hearing the prices - simply assume that D8/DS8 on a small daylight reel with 25-33feet /7.5-10m will cost at least as much as a Super8-cartridge with the same material. (And no, it will not become cheaper with Kodak producing it on a regular base.)

[Lupton Pittman]

Yeah, thanks for the advice. I have heard stories similar to this as well. I know it's tough and a long shot here, but I'm just trying to see if I can build any kind of momentum online to get more people to show interest to Kodak for this. I don't expect it to cost less than a Super 8 cartridge, which is like about $45 these days. But, at the same time I just want it available for people for a lower price, than say, what the film photography project sells it for now which is like $80 a roll.

David Toeppen sells it in the $40 range, but once his stock runs out and he gets another order of it he will probably have to sell it for considerably higher just like the film photography project. Film photography project and Toeppen, as I understand, both get their Regular 8 mm film from Wittner Cinetec in Germany. Wittner buys 16 mm film stock from Kodak and they have a perforating machine that they used to punch the necessary number of perforations needed fo use with a Regular 8mm movie camera. I inquired with Wittner recently about their prices and it works out pretty high. That seems to be the reason why the film photography project now needs to sell it for $80 a roll.

If I could somehow get Kodak to sell it for somewhere between $35 to $50 a roll, I would think that's still a not too outrageous price. As I said, I know it's a long shot, but, at the very least I want to give it a try.

[Simon Wyss]

What I deem important is that a low-speed, fine-grain panchro. reversal stock is lacking, like Panatomic-X reversal which had ASA 32. Even ISO 20 would be fine. Kodachrome startet with ASA 10, Kodachrome II had ASA 25.

We have ISO 100 Fomapan R and other high-speed films available, the image is not satisfying. Double-Eight had begun with 10 ASA stock and that’s not wrong. I have worked with ORWO PF 2 perforated Double-Eight by Kahl in Germany. The negatives are finely grained. Don’t get tired to tell Kodak that we want a slow fine-grain film with a colorless triacetate base.

[Shane C. Collins]

I will say the current Ektachrome 100D (7294) in Super 8 looks beautiful projected! However, I have found this stock is a bit under-sensitive to light. A full 1 stop more exposure turns this film into something quite nice on the big screen! I also recommend, and use a ND filter while applying more exposure in sunny weather. I would imagine this stock looks equally pleasing in Regular 8. I have a roll of this filmstock that was slit to Regular 8 and sold by FPP. I have yet to film with it, but will soon. I just find Super 8 is much easier and convenient to film with! While Regular 8 is quite fun to use, and with great looking cameras, it's a bit fiddling at times. If I'm on vacation, and shooting footage of family, etc the last thing I want to do is fiddle with flipping film.

Good luck on your endeavors!

[Lupton Pittman]

What I deem important is that a low-speed, fine-grain panchro. reversal stock is lacking, like Panatomic-X reversal which had ASA 32. Even ISO 20 would be fine. Kodachrome startet with ASA 10, Kodachrome II had ASA 25.

We have ISO 100 Fomapan R and other high-speed films available, the image is not satisfying. Double-Eight had begun with 10 ASA stock and that’s not wrong. I have worked with ORWO PF 2 perforated Double-Eight by Kahl in Germany. The negatives are finely grained. Don’t get tired to tell Kodak that we want a slow fine-grain film with a colorless triacetate base.

I don't have any experience with black and white film stock for Regular 8mm, but the Kodak Vision 3 50D color stock that Wittner Cinetec sells is really great. I really should buy some black and white film sometime and try it out. Thanks!

[Lupton Pittman]

I will say the current Ektachrome 100D (7294) in Super 8 looks beautiful projected! However, I have found this stock is a bit under-sensitive to light. A full 1 stop more exposure turns this film into something quite nice on the big screen! I also recommend, and use a ND filter while applying more exposure in sunny weather. I would imagine this stock looks equally pleasing in Regular 8. I have a roll of this filmstock that was slit to Regular 8 and sold by FPP. I have yet to film with it, but will soon. I just find Super 8 is much easier and convenient to film with! While Regular 8 is quite fun to use, and with great looking cameras, it's a bit fiddling at times. If I'm on vacation, and shooting footage of family, etc the last thing I want to do is fiddle with flipping film.

Good luck on your endeavors!

Thanks for the tip on the Ektachrome. I also like using an ND filter when filming in sunny conditions. Yes, Regular 8 mm film can be a bit of a hassle to use, but they are just so many inexpensive regular 8mm movie cameras on eBay from the 1930s to the 1960s that, if they were just cleaned up and lubricated a bit, would run very well. Also, most of these cameras are much more mechanical than Super 8 cameras, thus I think they have a greater chance of being able to be serviced once someone starts taking it apart and learning how it works. I know that most people in this hobby will not take it upon themselves to try to service their own camera, but I think we are at that point where we're going to have to try to do it ourselves as there are fewer and fewer people out there who offer repair services on these old cameras.

I just think it'd be a shame if people wanted to still use these great cameras but could not find any reasonably affordable film for them anymore.

[Ed Gordon]

I started an online petition to try to convince Kodak to manufacture Regular 8mm movie film again. Take a look - and if you are interested - please sign it!

I could sign your petition, but I gave up D8 when S8 came out. Your petition has value if it encourages D8 sales. Kodak will not pass up an opportunity to sell more film if the market is there. If there is no market, they will not risk another bankruptcy to please a niche market.

Interest is physical media has dropped in general, but is not dead yet:

By Rafi Schwartz, The Week US
published March 7, 2024

Physical media is having a moment

While streaming dominates the way we watch, listen and play, a growing number of people are finding pleasure — and treasures — in media they can hold

By Rafi Schwartz, The Week US
published March 7, 2024

For as long as humans have made stories, songs, and other forms of self-expression, we have also endeavored to find new and theoretically better ways to share those efforts with others. Cave paintings, illuminated manuscripts, wax cylinders, vinyl, laserdisc and so on — each new medium brings its own unique set of assets and challenges. These not only shape how we consume the media in question, but also help define the role of art in our lives.

In our current era of digital streaming, finding a movie to watch, an album to listen to or a game to play can be an exercise in sofa-based instant gratification. But a growing number of people are rejecting what they see as ephemeral app-based media. Instead, users have begun returning to the assurances of physical media that exist outside the whims of streaming's powers-that-be. Turned off by the churn of licensing agreements, streaming rights, and other structural forces that undercut any sense of digital ownership and permanence, consumers are once again embracing DVDs, CDs and other forms of tangible media. Once purchased, these items belong to them and them alone.

Is this return to once-abandoned mediums simply an exercise in nostalgia, or are the apparent flaws in the streaming ecosystem truly driving people back into the arms of tape decks and video game cartridges? Whatever the reason, physical media is undeniably having an unexpected moment.

"As volatile as it gets"

The "great pitch for streaming" at its onset was the notion of a convenient, one-stop shop for consumers to find their favorite media. However, rising subscription prices and the introduction of ads have made the entire industry "even more hostile" to users, IGN said. Moreover, if a streaming service opts to remove its original content without offering a physical alternative, then that show or movie "pretty much ceases to exist." Physical copies, then, are the "only way to ensure you can always watch them."

Streaming service libraries are as "volatile as it gets," agreed CNN, which pointed out that "digital purchases aren't actually safe either." Meanwhile, the "limits of modern home internet" means 4K Blu-ray quality will always be higher. Perhaps most importantly, some films and shows "just can't be found on streaming services or even as digital purchase or rental." Owning physical media is "valid and in some cases necessary" not just for personal enjoyment, but for the "preservation of cinema and TV" at large. Buoyed by praise from high-profile directors like Christopher Nolan and Wes Anderson, 4K Blu-rays in particular have become a major factor in the pivot back to physical media, with sales up "almost 6% in the third quarter of 2023 compared to 2022, and "up 20% year-over-year" at the end of 2022, The Wrap said, citing numbers from Digital Entertainment Group. It's the one area of physical media that's "actually growing" as the market goes through a "period of intense transformation."

Given the sheer convenience of streaming services, it is unlikely physical media will "become the norm for the general public," one movie critic said to tech site Livewire last month. But it could "regain popularity, especially among collectors and enthusiasts."

"More important than ever"

The appeal of physical media to niche groups of consumers is already apparent among anime fans. For example, those who have helped Justin Sevakis, founder and CEO of postproduction company MediaOCD, "find success by playing specifically to the small, passionate communities," said The Verge . While a "good hit in the niche Blu-ray space will move something like 5,000" discs, Sevakis told the outlet, the fact that they are not "huge numbers" does not lesson the fervor of committed fans who get "excited over the idea of physically owning media like this." The ephemeral nature of streaming means the work that Sevakis and others like him do "feels more important than ever."

It's not just film and television. While video game downloads have become a major avenue of sales worldwide, "it seems Japan still absolutely loves physical games," Kantan Games’ Serkan Toto told The Verge, citing Japan’s Computer Entertainment Supplier’s Association estimates. These showed that "65 percent of PlayStation 5 games" were physical purchases in Japan in 2022, compared to the "70 percent of full PS4 and PS5 game sales in 2022" sold globally which were digital.

[Shane C. Collins]

Thanks for the tip on the Ektachrome. I also like using an ND filter when filming in sunny conditions. Yes, Regular 8 mm film can be a bit of a hassle to use, but they are just so many inexpensive regular 8mm movie cameras on eBay from the 1930s to the 1960s that, if they were just cleaned up and lubricated a bit, would run very well. Also, most of these cameras are much more mechanical than Super 8 cameras, thus I think they have a greater chance of being able to be serviced once someone starts taking it apart and learning how it works. I know that most people in this hobby will not take it upon themselves to try to service their own camera, but I think we are at that point where we're going to have to try to do it ourselves as there are fewer and fewer people out there who offer repair services on these old cameras.

I just think it'd be a shame if people wanted to still use these great cameras but could not find any reasonably affordable film for them anymore.

I agree Lupton, these old cameras should be saved, and serviced when possible! I was able to dismantle, and service a Bolex P2 Regular 8 movie camera that is in my collection. It was pretty straight forward with a little help from online sources. I completed a partial disassembly, and lubed all moving parts, gears, etc. The camera runs like a brand new swiss watch. The Bolex clockwork cameras are a fine piece of precision, and mechanical wonders! Even the light meter on my P2, dating back to 1963-64, still works.

[Lupton Pittman]

I could sign your petition, but I gave up D8 when S8 came out. Your petition has value if it encourages D8 sales. Kodak will not pass up an opportunity to sell more film if the market is there. If there is no market, they will not risk another bankruptcy to please a niche market.

Interest is physical media has dropped in general, but is not dead yet:

Thanks for letting me know that physical media was having a resurgence - had no idea! I mean, I had read some things not too long ago about vinyl LPs having a resurgence, but never heard about DVDs also having one as well

[Lupton Pittman]

I agree Lupton, these old cameras should be saved, and serviced when possible! I was able to dismantle, and service a Bolex P2 Regular 8 movie camera that is in my collection. It was pretty straight forward with a little help from online sources. I completed a partial disassembly, and lubed all moving parts, gears, etc. The camera runs like a brand new swiss watch. The Bolex clockwork cameras are a fine piece of precision, and mechanical wonders! Even the light meter on my P2, dating back to 1963-64, still works.

Shane, that is awesome that you were able to refurbish your P2. I have that on my list of things to do as well - refurbish one of my old Bolex Regular 8mm cameras. I found these two resources online that I think I can follow to get me there:

http://bolexrepair.blogspot.com/2011...or-repair.html
http://cinetinker.blogspot.com/2013/...ex-d8l.html

That's what I really like about the Regular 8mm cameras compared to Super 8 cameras. That is, the Regular 8mm cameras were mostly all mechanical - and if you can service them - they might be able to last forever (or at least a very long time!). Super 8 cameras sometimes have a lot of electronics and electric motors - and a lot for times for functions that (I don't think) are even very necessary.

That is great you were able to service your own P2. That is great the light meter works, but myself and with my own experience with these old Bolex light meters, I still like taking separate readings myself (use a LightMeter app on my smartphone) and just dial in the correct aperture myself.