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I'm afraid this is just the legacy of Kodak anticipating putting sound film in the Kodapak cartridge and deciding where the best place for the recording head would be.
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Kodak probably decided that a 1 second picture-to-sound separation would make sound editing and film cutting a lot easier for the normal 18fps camera speed. A separation of 24 frames would have made sound projector design a whole lot easier. -
Joseph, it’s interesting our different experiences with super 8. I really don’t get chatter with my Elmo or Beaulieu.
When I was a kid I do remember hearing chatter on my Chinon SP350 with a particular print. I remember thinking, “why can I hear the projector noise through the speaker?”
I reckon a treatment of Filmgaurd or Thermofilm would have sorted it, but that sort of knowledge came many years later.
Chip, I went through a bit of hassle with wow. Around the late 90’s when I was buying quite a lot of Derann features, most would be fine but the occasional reel would wow. I had the Elmo serviced by two different people, but still the odd reel would be troublesome. Same polyester film but some reels just misbehaved. Never could figure it out.
It’s one reason I bought a Beaulieu.
I really like the clean sound from the Beaulieu although for some reason it doesn’t give the floor shaking bass that I can get from the Elmo (both through same eq and amp).
Many years back I tried to get a Eumig 938 based on Paul’s experience with it, but was outbid.
You don’t get any of this fun and games with digital.Comment
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As you say Rob, chatter comes through the speaker sounding like projector noise (which I guess it really should). For this reason, the mechanical sound coming out of the projector often naturally masks it.
Years ago I did an experiment. We used to have sliding doors out onto a back porch behind the table where I usually put the machines. One day I decided to see if the porch was useful as a projection booth, so I put that same ST-800 I talk about with the worn guides another 10 feet back onto the porch and ran an extension speaker about 35 feet up to the speaker.
I found with reduced projector sound to mask the chatter, it seemed much more present in the speaker. As a matter of fact this was the first time I became aware of it at all. The fact that I chose a reel with loud music sealed the fate of the experiment too! (Look at Life: the Big Blow)
This was my prime machine at the time, and this experience stopped me from pursuing an external sound system for a couple of years until I replaced those guides and noticed an improvement.
(-and having the machine 35 feet away from the screen was just plain exhausting when focus and audio adjustments were needed and reels have to be changed!)
As lot of us have dreams of building projection booths (me too). It's not a huge guess to imagine completely deadening the machine sound like this will really highlight this problem.Comment
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Steve, on a positive note, over the years I’ve been to 2 different set ups with a separate projector booth. Both using a GS1200 and neither suffered any chatter.
So it can be done!
Although, at one I did become aware of soundtrack hiss, which I’ve never really noticed before! Nothings perfect!Comment
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Yes, I suppose if you are going to go to the expense and effort of actual construction, it pays to roll out the big guns, too!
(I do like the simpler machines, though!)
-probably pays to go into 16mm first as well: build around the geometry of fixed focal-length lenses! Once you build a room, It's hard to step back from the geometry you have established.
See, If I did do this, I think it would be more a low-walled projection area, rather than fully enclosed: let's face it, the presence of the reel film equipment is part of the experience. (Why hide a lamp under a bushel?)
I did a multi-format show a few months ago (8,16, Blu-Ray) and a friend attending for the first time said his favorite part "was the old movie projectors".
He also asked "You leave all this stuff set up all the time?" (Yes, I do!)Comment
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Sound separation of 24 frames would also make the sound cartidges for their sound Super 8 cameras less compact and thus the cameras bigger. I image that was high in Kodak's priorites.Originally posted by Paul Adsett View PostComment
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Speaking about that dreaded Super8 chatter...
Although I thoroughly understand Kodak's decision's for 18 frames image/sound separation, however that's still borderline bare minimum distance. Some sound cameras just couldn't smooth out the film jitter before it reaches the recording head hence the chatter PERMANENTLY recorded to the sound, right there in the first place. Even my Fujicascope SD20 projector with its pinch rollers to completely iron out any film chatters before the playback head (the best design in town, period) is of no use in this scenario.
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That I can't get enough of Super 8!Comment
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I know I'm still stuck in the 80s but having to pay almost $300 for a 20 minute reel film short that 30 years ago was only $50 is a gripe of mine and I understand it is a Ridiculous COLA thing but still.........
(with all due respect to those making these films to fuel the hobby)Comment
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Chip,
Then you must be really upset when you go out to eat and then get the check!Comment
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In that case, I'm canceling our dinner reservation!Comment
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I have more than one pet peeve but they are related: #1 Purchasing a multi reel film and the ends of the prints have not been taped down which on occasion arrive with damage because of it. #2 Purchasing a multi reel film and the head leader on a reel is damaged from auto threading in the past because blank leader was not spliced on the head before projection. #3 Reels that are filled right to the edge which require careful handling to avoid spillage.Comment
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The pain of watching a print after a few years to discover that the color has packed its bags and gone away, never to return!Comment
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The painful realization that the really awful movie you are watching is also a downright spectacular print!
-that all that beautiful sharp image and wonderful color and sound could have instead been something you'd actually watch twice!Comment
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