MGM Super 8 Wizard of OZ missing Tin Man Sequence

[Walter Stanton]

Back around 1980, I purchased the MGM Super 8 version of Wizard of OZ and the liner notes on the box of the 400' digest version said it contained the Tin Man song/dance sequence--however it didn't. At the time, I wrote to them asking about it being missing and they said that part of the dupe neg had been damaged, and the whole scene had to be edited out. Did anyone ever have a version of the print with the Tin Man song/dance sequence included? Did they ever restore it?

[Brian Harrington]

I remember borrowing this from a friend about 30 years ago. I noticed that it didin't contain the Tin Man's song, but I think they used the Cowardly Lion song instead. I figured it was just a mistake on the box.

By dupe neg, I assume they mean the 16mm one prepared to print the Super 8s. They could have easily prepared a new dupe neg from what I assume was a 35mm (neg, print, who knows?). I guess it wasn't worth it for them.

Even 30 years ago, the print I saw was badly faded, so I never sought out a copy to buy. Also, I didn't particularly like the edit. But how could I, when I'd prefer the whole shebang in all its glory!

[Joerg Polzfusz]

By dupe neg, I assume they mean the 16mm one prepared to print the Super 8s.

It doesn’t have to be 16mm. There have also been prints made from 35mm (rare) and from Super8 (especially smaller runs/companies).

[Brian Harrington]

I guess the pre-print could be anything, but for Ken Films full-length release of TWOO, I assumed M-G-M would have provided Ken Films with a 35mm duplicating positive (or something similar) from which a 16mm "printing" negative was made, via optical reduction, with super 8 sprocket holes on each side, and one band of super 8 running down one side, and another on the other side back up. That 16mm "printing" neg would then be used to make Super 8 prints, which were then slit from the 16mm wide print. Wasn't that pretty standard in the 70s and early 80s?

I also assume that the pre-print would have been returned to M-G-M after Ken Films copied it.

For the digest in question, Ken Films would have had to edit it down using a copy that they made from the M-G-M pre-print. I'm guessing they made some sort of work print, did the edit, then made the equivalent edits in the 16mm "printing" neg.

So when they said the "dupe" neg was damaged, that would probably equate to what I'm calling the 16mm "printing" neg. They probably didn't want to go back to M-G-M to borrow the pre-print again, so they re-edited the digest with the Cowardly Lion song.

I have old catalogs from Red Fox up until the early 80s, and they advertised just about everything that was available, but I never saw an ad for TWOO full-length, either made by them or from Ken Films. I have seen it for sale on a certain auction site, however. Does anyone know when Ken Films released it? Did Red Fox ever print it before it went to Derann? I never knew that Ken Films released any full-length features until I'd seen them for sale in recent years. An LPP print of SINGIN' IN THE RAIN from Ken Films was recently sold -- seller said from 1982.

thanks

[Douglas Meltzer]

Brian,

Here's a thread from the Grand Old Forum about Ken Films' feature releases. The Wizard of Oz is not among them. Bob Lane, president of Ken, negotiated for Derann to get the negative for The Wizard of Oz and other titles.

[Brian Fretwell]

As Derann used labs that did direct reduction printing from a 16mm negative to two rank Super 8 stock I would say the Red Fox negative would have to be a full frame 16mm one not double rank.

[Brian Harrington]

Douglas, Brian,

Thanks for the interesting info. I guess there were many different ways to make Super 8 prints.

Regarding my thoughts of Ken Films releasing TWOO in full-length, I might have been mistaken due to the box art. Did Derann use the Ken Films' box art for their M-G-M releases, or something similar?

So Red Fox did release TWOO as well?

For years I didn't realize that Ken Films actually released those M-G-M extracts.

Many people (including sellers on auction sites) seem to think that Niles released it, too, but in B&W, but that was obviously the Larry Semon silent version.

Another copy of SINGIN' sold about a month ago, without screen shots, but the seller said B+/C+ color, so I wonder if it was a Ken Films or a bootleg -- or did Ken release some M-G-M full-length features in Eastman?