Vinegar Syndrome

[Harry Abramson]

Hey, I'm back! My 16 oz. bottle of FilmGuard finally arrived, so I removed my worst-looking film from its baking soda-filled box and it looks & smells much better. The A-D Strip has gone from a very sickly yellow to a much less sickly shade of green (compare to photo in post #19 above). I'm now ready to clean the film and transfer it to a plastic reel in preparation for digitizing. I have a few questions going into the next phase of this project, but I'll start a new thread for those. -Harry

[Burton Sundquist]

Excellent news Harry and the thread has been quite informative. Glad to see Sborty' s
contribution too. Now we are all at a better level of understanding VS smelling prints. Best of luck looking forward.

[Shane C. Collins]

I'd like to add, besides using the movie film protectant disc, I also use Kodak's molecular sieves. This is written from Kodak....."the Molecular Sieve Acid Scavenger is a small white packet that you place inside a film box or can. The Molecular Sieve absorbs both humidity moisture and off-gassing from the film itself. This preserves your precious film from damage and deterioration and also helps retard and prevent Vinegar Syndrome".
Here's where I order those sleeves. The price from film forever is $13.95 for six packets. The sleeves are good for about 2 years. Definitely invest in some Film Guard when your able to purchase some. It really helps the film from drying out, and makes film run smoother through a projector. I did a film about a year ago and it's still very pliable, and not dry. I think the bottom line is film is a lot tougher than we give it credit for. My cousin has some family films, shot on 8mm, from the mid 40's that look, and play like new. Not even a hint of VG smell. It really does boil down to how it's stored, in most cases, it's seems. I use Super 8 for many of my family events, vacations, etc. I project these films several times a year just for the pure enjoyment of watching them. You'll figure out what needs to be done with these films. I wouldn't hesitate to project those films that appear to be OK. After all that's what film was designed for. Just use caution, and make sure your projector is in good running order.
https://filmforevermpe.com/products/...ve-six-packets

[Harry Abramson]

Joe Caruso Your previous comments on this thread and in the archives served as my guide for the initial approach I'm taking with this film. The paper towel sheets prevent the baking soda from coming in direct contact with the film, but are porous enough to permit vapors to be absorbed. I'll report my results in the next week or so. Many thanks to you, Shorty, David, Burton, Osi, Shane, Ed, and everyone else who offered valuable assistance to this total newbie!

I hope I won't be wearing out my welcome when I start a couple of new threads with questions about the Vernon editor/viewer I purchased, and a pristine Craig rewind & splicer I just found when I revisited my uncle's house this week.

[Harry Abramson]

David M. Leugers . Yes, this is my understanding, as well--metal cans aren't the cause of VS, but serve to promote/accelerate it by encasing the film in an airtight, non-porous container, from which acetic acid vapors have no way of escaping & dissipating. My best-case scenario is that I'm able to successfully scan the "yellow strip" film without it falling apart, after which it will remain in permanent storage under the best conditions I can muster. I'm hoping that the "blue strip" film remains in good enough condition after scanning that I'm able to screen it "in its original glory" on a projector for family members.

[Joe Caruso]

Storage...it is a matter in how one keeps film. There must be a constant flow of cool air circulation, any season...Baking Soda is carbon, sodium, hydrogen and oxygen molecules...basically a bicarbonate salt which relieves acid indigestion and absorbs odors...back when, I figured this might take away the vinegar smell off celluloid without harm...so, I experimented with the one print I had that smelled "off"....in this case, I sprinkled some in both open parts of the cardboard box the film came in...then, place a dab inside the holes of the reels (it was a 2x200')...let it stand for 3 days in a cool room..AD strip went down to a 3...turned the reels over, added that same dab inside the holes, emptied the boxes and re-sprinkled with the soda...waited another 4 days...AD went to 1...now, I'm speaking about a Standard 8mm acetate print which did smell, though not horribly-so...and I wasn't about to trash a Oliver Hardy/Charlie Chase BROMO & JULIET...so after the week or so, I cleaned it again with FR and Cotton swabs on rewinds...this was several months ago..print and box are aromatically sound, apart from natural age (cardboard exudes acids, though not harmful), as it is, the odor was neutralized to practically nothing...don't think I know anything, just a collector who experiments...one aspect I adhere to, I never touch the film itself with the baking soda...as we all know, all material items will age; comics turn yellow...what can one do...recordings become worn out...yet film plays on as music, it will last as long as we want it to...anyway, my nickel on it...Shorty

[David M. Leugers]

I don't believe metal cans and reels "cause" VS. Certainly VS can exist in films stored on plastic reels inside plastic cans or cardboard boxes. It's a very bad problem, that I believe is more in the film base and development process when looking for culprits. The discussion about what to do after VS hits is like closing the barn door after the horse got out... not much we can do long term at this point I am afraid. I like and use the copper colored Archivalware stickers to protect my films, but also as a warning device. If the sticker changes appearance, it is absorbing acid from the film which is turning VS. Kind of an early warning device.

[Harry Abramson]

Well, the A-D Strips came arrived Wednesday and I checked the results on all my films & acetate-base audio tapes today. The worst-smelling film was a 200-footer on the worst-looking spool. Not surprisingly, the strip turned solid yellow after two days in direct contact with the film which, per the instructions, was sealed back into the metal canister during the test period.

The second-worst-smelling film was a bit of a surprise, though. This was another 200-footer, but wound on a 7-inch spool that looked to be in pretty good shape, even though it also spent the past 65-70 years sealed in a metal canister. In this case, however, the strip barely changed from the original blue--just slight greenish tinge around the edges. (Photos attached)

The test strips for all of the other home movies, store-bought films, and audio tapes were somewhere in the green. Since I already had a 12-lb. bag of baking soda handy (I use it for lots of stuff), I decided to see what it could do for the worst film, especially since 16 oz. bottles of FG won't be back in stock for at least another week or more.

I found a cardboard box measuring 8"W x 8"D x 2"H and lined the inside walls & bottom with painter's tape so it could be cleaned out easily. I poured about a ½-inch layer of baking soda in the bottom, then placed a paper towel sheet on top of it, followed by the film--out of the canister, but still on the grungy-looking spool. Then, another paper towel on top of the film reel, with more baking soda on top of that. I'll open it up and test again in a couple of weeks or when my FG arrives, whichever comes first.

I know the condition of that metal spool can't be doing the film any good, but I'm concerned about how brittle it might be, so I don't want to subject it to any unnecessary handling until I'm ready to clean/lube it, scan it, and rewind it onto a fresh plastic spool. -Harry

[Ed Gordon]

Improving storage is the single most important step that institutions can take to protect their film collections. This chapter outlines the benefits brought by cold and dry storage and suggests options available to cultural repositories. It also dis-cusses film containers, nitrate segregation, and other storage issues particular to the motion picture. Cold and dry storage wins preservationists a measure of control over the film decay process and buys time for preservation copying.

From: The Film Preservation Guide - Ch 6 - Storage.pdf

Complete guide at: https://www.filmpreservation.org/pre...guide-download

[Shane C. Collins]

Your welcome Harry! I agree calling those stick-on disc "Vinegar Syndrome Eliminators" is definitely a sales tactic! But, as you mentioned, it certainly doesn't hurt to have them inside the film box. If they help to keep my current home movies like new, then the price was well worth it, and then some!

[Brian Fretwell]

Baking soda is very good for absorbing smells. My mother always kept an open pot of it in her fridge for that reason.

[Burton Sundquist]

Harry, if you have a film editor it would be safe enough for you to look at a few feet. Here you could assess the print for curling or shrinkage.
One VG print I bought was concave coming out of the reel. The next which smelled like salt and vinegar potato chips was perfect and was an incredibly good B&W print so I screened it immediately, then stored it in the freezer. This worked for me. I would also wait on Shorty's baking soda treatment. As mentioned, I am no chemist but I do know about acid and baking soda..I agree we should hear more about this.

[Adrian Winchester]

I have had success with baking soda powder and sheets, AD strips went from 4 to 1 with several weeks treatment.

Shorty - baking powder is pleasingly inexpensive and I've considered experimenting with it. Could you please share the technique you're using that brings such good results?

[Harry Abramson]

Shane C. Collins Thanks for that, I hadn't seen these before. Wish I had known about them before ordering my plastic spools, leader, & Presstapes from MomentCatchers, but I'm grabbing some now. Of course, calling them "Vinegar Syndrome Eliminators" may be overselling it a bit, but if they serve as an effective preventative measure for healthy films and deodorize & slow the decay of VS-infected films, they're worth the $1.98.

I also got a response from Steve Osborne today letting me know that FG won't be back in stock for another couple of weeks due to difficulty in obtaining the plastic bottles. At least this should give me time to receive the A-D strips and see what they can tell me about my smelly films & audio tapes.

[Shane C. Collins]

For all my current home movies, that I've shot over the last 15 years, they all get a movie film protectant sleeve. I purchase them from Moment catcher Productions. I stick them to the bottom of the cardboard box the film resides in. All my films look and smell like new. Here's a photo and link to their website. I also treat all my films with Filmguard. The films play very smooth through the projector.
https://www.momentcatcherproductions...ator_p_43.html