Can we (deliberately) vaporize gas from film to avoid VS later on?

[Winbert Hutahaean]

This is still about the vinegar syndrome, because I am trying to figure it out several symptoms that different from the usual.

Several days ago I have concluded that none of my Blackhawk prints got VS although they are stored in the same place where tens of my reel I had to bin them due to VS. I live in Indonesia which is very hot and humid. I left them in a closed storage for 4 years during my overseas assignment.

A few week before I concluded that 90% of my films with VS were those inside a plastic clamshell case. I have a feeling that the storage itself is already hot and inside a tight plastic clamshell created even hotter temperature.

Beside the very strong vinegar smell, films that got heavy VS will be easily distinguished by the crystallization of gases (similar to salt) surrounding the case as picture below.



Today, I found one plastic can and the well known crystallization of gases was also found surrounding the can. I already guessed the film inside will have been damage by VS. But surprisingly the film was fine.

So would that be possible that due to certain circumstances the gases escaped from the film without damaging the film itself. I would imagine something similar when we dry wet clothes outside and when the clothes dried up, they do not have any more water, so it will not wet again (until it is soaked to water again).

If this thing is indeed happening, will the film that has released the chemical gas will still get VS later on? If yes I will think a technique to deliberately vaporize the gas from film to avoid VS later on.

Your input and thought will be really appreciated.

[Zachary Greenberg]

How frustrating VS is to us film collectors! Alas your comparison of film undergoing VS decay with drying clothes doesn't work. When clothes are drying, the water is removed from the fabric but the water is not an integral part of clothing, so to speak. When film undergoes VS decomposition, the vinegar gas was/is actually an integral part of the acetate film. So the salt-like crystals or acetic acid is the outcome of a chemical reaction which, when it starts, is not possible to reverse. A film collector can only slow the process, not reverse it, by lowering storage temperature and humidity.
Therefore, your idea of "flash-vaporizing" the vinegar from the film wouldn't work without destroying the film. I generally try to keep my VS-prone acetate films in storage where humidity is as low as possible to forestall the VS reaction. But if the humidity is too low then the gelatin upon which the image is inscribed gets too dry and warps and curls. Acetate film is a complicated product of many layers, each with its own optimum conditions for preservation.

[Zachary Greenberg]

Also: the scholarly consensus on preserving acetate motion picture film has changed in the last 10 years. Now, sadly, it is pretty much understood that ALL acetate film ever made will decay in time. Optimum storage with the best technology only delays VS decomposition (turning a matter of years or decades to a century or so). Acetate film is beautiful, but ephemeral. Poly stock film is much more robust of course.

[Winbert Hutahaean]

Also: the scholarly consensus on preserving acetate motion picture film has changed in the last 10 years. Now, sadly, it is pretty much understood that ALL acetate film ever made will decay in time. Optimum storage with the best technology only delays VS decomposition (turning a matter of years or decades to a century or so). Acetate film is beautiful, but ephemeral. Poly stock film is much more robust of course.

Thanks Zach, it seems to me you know a lot about VS. So can you tell me the possible explanation for my 2 situation (which I also posted in different thread):

1. None of my Blakchawk prints are on VS, at least until now, while they are stored in the same place with others. Is this because I was lucky, or the chemical lab used by Blackhawk was not that strong like those used by Ken Films (Maritz Lab). I believe all Blackhawk films are on acetate.

2. The initial story I wrote above was about a can with full of salt-like crystals but the film is fine. How can it be and will that film still get VS?

thanks

[Zachary Greenberg]

Hello Winbert-

Regarding your 1st question: It's possible you got lucky with the Blackhawk films. If they were stored in vented cans perhaps the byproducts of VS - crystals, vinegar gas smell, etc- didn't accumulate enough to be visible to you.

Concerning your 2nd question: I have had some films that smell strongly of vinegar and have VS but project fine. The only sure way to know if a film has VS is by using special test strips (A-D test strips). Even if you don't smell vinegar gas or the film seems fine, it may still have VS.

https://www.filmcare.org/ad_strips

I have some films in my collection that have VS - either smelling like vinegar or the A-D strips reveal mild VS- but are perfectly ok to project. I just store them isolated from all other prints.
The only way to tell if your salt-crusted film has VS for sure is to use a test strip. Until then I would definitely keep it isolated, even if it doesn't readily smell like vinegar because again a film can sometimes have VS without smelling like vinegar gas. In my experience, VS films can emit all kinds of strange smells (or have no odor) from vinegar gas to floral odors and beyond.

[Zachary Greenberg]

Lastly: looking at your photo of the salt crusted film, maybe it is decades-old residue of masking tape? If that stretch of crystal is only on the leader end of the reel (head or tail) and you don't smell vinegar (or the A-D test shows no VS), then perhaps it's just the remainder of ancient tape adhesive?

[Stuart Budd]

Thank you guys. I've just been reading your post as recently I'd purchased a projector with a little Ilford 3" sealed case. Opened it and almost fainted! The smell was dreadful. The reel was of leader Regular8 both white and clear/dark. I'm guessing that this is VS (Vinegar Syndrome) and acetate film material. Thank you for the heads up, good to know.

[Joe Caruso]

Acids...oxides, all will be released in time, no way to "vaporize" chemical reactions...however, those light cardboard boxes which films originally arrived in, they will hold out a long time, with care even longer than the film itself. With 16mm acetate in cans, found at many shows, you often take a risk upon opening...it is and always will be a matter of storage/climate...archives have special boxes and controlled-vaults, those prints we cherish so much and watch from TV will always be intact. We collectors/dealers however, have to be clever to create our own environment with cleaners/strips/sieves and first-level maintenance, to keep our films sound (pun might be intended)...many years back, there was a solution called VAPORATE (Peerless Film Treatment), which accordingly was a permanent protection against climate, wear and all else and was sold in Chicago, Hollywood and New York...I tried to locate more information about this lubricant, still am...One 8mm film I bought contained this ad, and been intrigued ever since...Cleaners can only go so far, then it is up to us to tend to these prints faithfully. I asked a comic collector I know how he keeps those old books smelling nice and still with vibrant color, he said kept in acid-free boards and archival bags (rarely opens them)...no vinegar, only the standard paper smell (though browning is simply age)...we obviously can't have all our films in acid-free cans (if such a creature exists), nor archival bags (though it's interesting)...I still maintain some films with baking soda powder and sheets, even the cardboard boxes' odor is absorbed...well, we do what we have to and learn along the way...Shorty

[Winbert Hutahaean]

Lastly: looking at your photo of the salt crusted film, maybe it is decades-old residue of masking tape? If that stretch of crystal is only on the leader end of the reel (head or tail) and you don't smell vinegar (or the A-D test shows no VS), then perhaps it's just the remainder of ancient tape adhesive?

No, it is not residue of masking tape because I could easily remove it by wiping them. This salt-like crystal has long grains.