Blackhawk: Green vs Silver box.

[Osi Osgood]

Another Blackhawk question for Shorty or anyone interested. Which, in your collective opinions, is the better print quality? Green box or silver box editions, in comparison? I know that in many cases, Blackhawk films had new negatives struck for the silver box editions, but from some, I have heard that the green box editions were the best prints, not including they're standard 8 prints, of course. You're opinions, ladies and gentlemen?

[Mark McLaughlin]

Interesting. What about the pink boxes that all of my L&h were in

[Osi Osgood]

I have heard that the green boxes were a little better than the pink.

[Joe Caruso]

HOG WILD was always a little "rubbed", in any style box...MEN O WAR also, but not as washy...Most of the olive-green editions are standouts... The majority of silver editions from newly-struck elements also are exceptional, again it is the luck of the draw with the early pink ones, yet again, many are quite nice, especially the silent editions (considering that is all the pre-print material there was)...we're lucky to have these items...Fraternally, Shorty..My latest baking-soda experiment on a vinegar-box worked out well...let it stand 12 days with changeover batches of the powder to absorb...not bad...

[Mike Newell]

Wonder have any other collectors swopped boxes because they preferred one colour of box to another or wanted them all on a shelf in the same colour. I switched some Derann prints of Laurel and Hardy into Walton ones. Didn’t get my hands on too many Blackhawks. Did the same with Disneys and Tom and Jerry. Lovely colour boxes 😇Also made up original labels by scanning and altering. Does cause a little mayhem for future collectors but that my friends is just part of the rich tapestry of life.

[Tony Ferrara]

Yes, I did this once: I had 2 prints of a Laurel and Hardy short, one in the green box and one in the silver box. I preferred the print in the silver box, but since it was generic, I preferred the green one with the boys on the cover -- so I swapped before selling one! I have a soft spot for the pink boxes, though, in general, since my first L&Hs came in these. Boxes only, not necessarily for print quality. That being said, I have noticed that prints in the L&H pink boxes are usually excellent (with some exceptions), particularly ones that say "Eastin-Phelan" rather than "Lee Enterprises."

I never, however, had the opportunity to compare Super 8 prints of the same L&H film except on that one occasion. I have compared older Standard 8mm prints to Super 8 prints of the same title, though. Sometimes the Super 8 is better; sometimes vice-versa.

I think you really need to cherry pick based on how the film projects, not on the particular box. I woudn't go crazy though. If you are unhappy with a Blackhawk L&H (I'm sticking to the boys since I assume the question pertained to them once I saw the reference to a green box), ask around. You might have a print that is only as good as it ever got from Blackhawk in Super 8 or 8mm.

There are known upgrades in pre-print that were heavily hyped by Blackhawk when they were released -- "Two Tars", "Big Business", and "Sons of the Desert", although the latter was not as heavily hyped as the 2 former titles.

And of course the Chaplin Mutual Restorations -- but they came in yellow boxes, lol. I have never seen them offered for sale in any other colored box.

[Osi Osgood]

I would be curious as to any upgrade on Sons of the Desert, as this was one of they're worst Laurel and Hardy feature prints, as the focus was exceptionally marginal. If they later released a silver box edition of this feature, I would certainly like to see the print quality. Several have brought up an interesting point. I wonder if some sellers do a "switch" on prints and boxes as they know that the Silver Box editions are prized? You know, put a pink box edition, in a silver box?

[Graham Sinden]

I think many would put a pink edition in a silver box before selling it to get more bidders, you never know what you might get. I'm glad I don't collect Blackhawk.

Is there a way of telling what edition/negative from the Leader? assuming you can inspect it before buying.

[Tony Ferrara]

If I know there were different editions that had different catalog numbers, I look at the pic of the box -- though amazingly many sellers don't show the label, nor identify the film -- then I ask questions. Sometimes the seller will check the leader for the title and/or catalog number. I assume that 99.99% of films are in their original correct box, and nobody swapped them out, even though I have done it. 😀 I doubt many people, even collectors, have sought out multiple prints of the same title just to swap boxes. If anything, they did it to upgrade their print. That being said, I recently received a Niles print in a Blackhawk box -- originally a Library print, with the title hand-written with a sharpie. I wasn't surprised, though, since it was a title Blackhawk didn't offer, and someone had taped to the box a description of the film from a Niles catalog -- which showed the Niles catalog number.

If the seller is willing, have them check the date code (if present) on the film stock. At least you know more or less when it was printed.

Having collected for 48 years, I am not convinced that the color of the box has that much to do with the quality of the print. Even with good pre-print, the lab technician could have been having a bad day. I doubt that Blackhawk ever destroyed returned prints that were defective -- there are too many of them floating around -- I have, or have had, many. The frame line being out-of-whack, or the print going in and out of focus every half second like a pulse beat. I have kept a few because the titles are rare. Regarding the focus pulse, it sometimes is not that bad unless your lens is really good! (Like an Elmo 1.1)

The upgrades weren't always better -- depending on your definition of "better." Take the 1975 Chaplin Mutual Restorations, for example. They are uniquely identified by the catalog number on the box, and by the main titles and prologue, which precedes the main titles unlike what Blackhawk usually did. Some of the pre-restorations (not sure how many versions there were) have superior picture quality. Also, the different versions usually have mutuially exclusive scenes. I have thought about doing some editing to make better prints, but more often than not you wind up with mis-aligned framing -- plus I hate to splice up a print that doesn't already have splices.

Regarding "Sons of the Desert", the 1974 printing in the pink box that I received directly from Blackhawk in 1974 is excellent. I have heard complaints about this title -- I think it is hit or miss based upon the lab work that day, as Blackhawk obviously had great pre-print on this. It is missing about 3 seconds during the opening lodge scene. The "organ pumper" line is all there despite what I have read. The later upgrade, released without much fanfare, other than it being mentioned in the bulletin when first released, has the original "L&H in" card that had been replaced with a Backhawk title card in the earlier printing -- though the ealier one did have the original "Sons of the Desert" title card. Chief Blackhawk is superimposed over Leo, as in "Two Tars" and "Big Business." Other than seeing screen shots, I have never seen this version projected in person. I wasn't too impressed, btw, by the newly restored version that came out on DVD in 2020.

Given that Blackhawk L&H prints, and Chaplin Mutuals, are so plentiful today, and selling for prices below the prices they originally sold for in the mid-70s, it is not that difficult to purchase multiple prints of the same title and do some comparisons yourself for desired titles.

[Joe Caruso]

For years I have done just that, in purchase or trade for back-up titles and edit some comparison shopping (as it were)...I landed by chance, a tinted blue FC titles complete of Towed in A Hole...that is why I eagerly anticipate when a collection becomes available at a show, you never know what can be had..Shorty

[Osi Osgood]

Great post, Tony!

[Tony Ferrara]

The only Super 8 L&H print I got that was from Blackhawk and had Film Classics Title was "Beau Hunks". I replaced it with the later version that had a mix of Blackhawk titles and the 1937 re-issue Roach titles -- superior pre-print was used for that one.

Was the blue-tinted "TIAH" a Blackhawk print? Even the ones with FC titles you can ID as a Blackhawk because of at least one of the following ear-marks: 1) The leader, if the original is still present, has the Blackhawk catoolg numer, 2) the infamous Blackhawk "License Notice", and 3) the "A Blackhawk Films Release" card at either the beginning or end of the film. They used this card pretty much for any film (not just LH ones) where they didn't replace the titles that ID'd it as a Blackhawk.

My 1975 Blackhawk "TIAH" is one of the best L&H prints I have in the Super 8 format. This one came on 2 reels in that drab light-brown box -- probably my least favorite box. Funny, but I have seen many "TIAHs" for sale in that exact same box. Plus, I spliced the 2 reels together onto one reel that is not filled to the brim -- not sure why Blackhawk put it on 2 reels.

Another oddity: "Sugar Daddies" is almost always in a generic Blackhawk box -- not L&H pink, nor Hal Roach box. The one in mostly blue and white with the silouettes of old-time actors.

[Joe Caruso]

No, have SUGAR in nice pink box...depends on the draw...Shorty

[Tony Ferrara]

Doesn't suprise me that much -- I figured there must have been a few -- what does surpise me is that so many "Sugar Daddies" for sale aren't in the pink box. As the narrator in "The Futher Perils of Laurel & Hardy" says wile showing clips from that film, "They are together scene after scene; yet still they were not a team." My theory of why they perhaps didn't always put it in a L&H box. But then again, "45 Minutes from Hollywood" came in a pink box and the Blackhawk version didn't even have the Stan scene!

Thanks, Osi.

OK, here it is, the "Blackhawk Anniversary Special 273A" bulletin from May, 1976:
https://web.opendrive.com/api/v1/dow...1NDRf?inline=1

I also have a physical copy of this from when it was originally mailed to me, but it is easier now to look online.
See page 2. "Sons of the Desert" is on sale -- $64.77 for Super 8 magnetic sound!

From the description:
"New printing negatives from prime quality pre-print material have been made and the soundtrack has been
completely re-recorded to give the best-quality reproduction!" To the best of my knowledge, this was the first and only mention of this fact in a Blackhawk bulletin. It is neither mentioned in the previous one, nor in the very next one (also from May 1976.)

I am curious if the soft-focus prints that you and others have mentioned were pre or post May 1976. It is very possible that the soft-focus prints were pre-1974 (by how many years, I do not know), and that Blackhawk did an interim upgrade by 1974. Since May 1976 was in the Lee Enterprises era, it could be that despite superior pre-print, it was shoddy labwork. I am not sure when they supposedly changed labs. I also read somewhere that Blackhawk had their own labs and equipment. I think it was from an on-line interview with David Shepard. Do you still have your soft-focus "Sons of the Desert", Osi, and if you do, does it have all original titles as I mentioned, with the Blackhawk logo super-imposed over the M-G-M Leo the Lion Trademark?


While the upgrades to "Two Tars" and "Big Business" were mentioned a few times when they were released, I don't recall ever seeing the fact stated that "Way Out West" was upgraded -- and I know it was. I have been trying to pinpoint the date for many years. I do know it was no later than 1975 for 16mm, but no earlier than 1977 for Super 8.


OK, I checked -- my copy of "Sugar Daddies" is in the pink box, too. But the attached box is the one that I always see when it is for sale. This is the box that Our Gang's "Framing Youth" usually comes in, too, albeit in the 200 foot box. Is that the "psychedelic" box?

My copy of the European release of "A Chump at Oxford" is in a Hal Roach box, interestingly enough.

[Joe Caruso]

Hey Tony, I can use that Anniversary issue...Shorty