Rebuilding my Eumig (810D or 712)

[Tony Ferrara]

As I mentioned in the Eumig Motor mount thread, I am awaiting my new motor mounts.

I do have a decision to make. I have an 810D that I got new in 1974, but now has a burnt out motor, worn rubber discs, and the stops for the speed switch broke long ago (so it is actually a true variable speed projector now). I bought a 712 that seems to be OK, but the motor mounts had literally disintegrated without a trace. I transplanted the 810D motor mounts into it, and it ran OK (but without film -- I hadn't cleaned it up enough nor lubed it yet), and the rubber drive wheels look barely used. Overall, though, the machine looks like it had been left out in the rain for a century or two, then stored in a cold wine cellar for another century. The 1.6 lens needed cleaning, which I did, but luckily I have a prisitine 1.3 lens (screw-in type) in one of my parts-bins. The spaceman lamp still works, and I have 2 spares in my stockpile for my Bolex 18-5. The volume control works, but makes static noise through the speaker when turning -- I assume I just need some contact cleaner. After a few minutes, the motor mounts from the 810 cracked and started to crumble.

Decisions -- pros and cons:
-------------------------------

Rebuilding the 810D pros:
1. I have kept it in good cosmetic condition.
2. I know the sound and speakers work without issues.
3. I have plenty of spare pressure pads and gates.
4. It was my first sound projector!
5. It is Dual-8 (though some might list this as a con, I don't have any Standard 8mm sound films, and I have many other Standard 8mm silent projectors.)
6. EFP lamp

Rebuilding the 810D cons:
1. All the issues listed in the first paragraph.
2. 1-pin claw.
3. Can the motor from the 710 work in this? I think so, since it is exactly the same size and appearance. I'm no electrical wiz, though. It will run at the correct speed, right -- meaning before it hits the rubber drives. Will the transformer supply the same voltage? (I am good with mechanical things, but regarding eletricity, I can connect wires, strip them if I have to, and know to match watts and volts. Not sure about other stuff, lol.)
4. Strictly auto-thread, can't remove film from path without unscrewing sound heads -- but been there, done that. Some nooks and crannies to clean in film path -- more chance of scratching film -- though I have never had an issue, unlike with my Elmo ST-1200HD.

Rebuilding the 712 pros:
1. The motor works.
2. 2-pin claw.
3. I have spare pressure plates that fit.
4. The rubber drives are in great condition.
5. Speed switch works properly, including the stops.
6. The motor alignment is spot-on (at least when the motor mounts were put into it.) The front control knob stops for the motor tilt have not been monkeyed with. The screws on the motor mount that affect the tilt alignment have not been monkeyed with either -- original factory paint intact.
7. Semi auto-thread -- practically manual. Can remove film from path easily. No nooks and crannies to clean in film path -- less chance of scratching films.

Rebuilding the 712 cons:
1. All the issues listed in the first paragraph -- including some rust and lots of blueish/white "stuff" inside -- oxidation?
2. Spaceman lamp -- although I could convert to halogen, albeit being stuck with 8 volts and 50 watts. The projected image was pretty bright though, even with the 1.6 lens (didn't try the 1.3 yet.) -- much like the Bolex 18-5 is.
3. Gate is fixed and not removeable without unscrewing.

I was thinking of doing this in incremental steps, and testing without film first, before deciding how to proceed.
Keep in mind that I only plan to use this for 24fps Super 8 sound films. Something like this:

1. Install motor mounts into 712.
2. Test without film. (sort of did 1 and 2 already with the old 810 motor mounts before they crumbled.)
3. Decision time: Do I painstakingly clean it, lube it, and proceed to test with film?

otherwise:
4. Transplant 712 motor with new mounts into 810.
5. Transplant 712 rubber drives into 810.
6. Test without film.
7. Test with film and try to get the speed right (There are no stops on the speed switch).

8. Decision time: if speed runs consistently for sound films, possibly do the following:
9. Transplant speed switch mechanism from 712 to 810 or
10. Just leave speed alone, and possibly temporarily remove or lock speed switch. (I might have to tweak the speed later on, though.)

Additional tweaks if I go the 810 route:
11. Transplant 2 pin shutter claw from 712 to 810 -- I know there will be some trial and error alignment, and of course timing, which I have done before with an Elmo ST-1200HD.

Additional tweaks if I go 712 route:
12. Convert to use halogen lamp.

I am leaning toward rebuilding the 810.
So steps 4 - 7, 8 (test thoroughly, maybe days or weeks), then 9-10. Step 11 if I feel the need, though frankly I never had much issue with one pin for Super 8 -- it never handled Standard 8mm well, though.

Any thoughts, ideas, or advice welcomed. This is really just a pet project due to the sentimental nature of the Eumig. I already have, for Super 8 sound, a perfectly working Elmo ST-1200HD, another one on the mend that I am close to reviving, and a Yashica (Yamawa-made) 820 that works beautifully. The latter might be my favorite Super 8 sound projctor that I picked up for a relatively "song-and-dance" price about a year ago that just needed belts. (Shipping cost more than the selling price of the projector.) With the EFP and 1.3 lens, it projects nearly as bright and sharp as the Elmo ST-1200HD, and handles films much better -- rock steady pic on any film I have tried. Only 600 feet capacity, but considering the relatively few films I have mounted on 800 foot and 1200 foot reels, it gets a lot of use.

Thanks

[Joseph Banfield]

Personally, after reading what you wrote I would suggest concentrating on the 810. The "spaceman" lamp of the 712 would automatically be the defining no-go for me since those lamps are no longer made anymore and the remaining ones are in short supply and are VERY expensive too.

If you transplant the two pin claw into the 810 you will effectively turn the machine into a Super 8 only machine because it will no longer be able to run standard 8 film. A one pin claw is required to be able to run both guages of film!

The motors from both machines are the same but there were some changes done to the speed mechanism mounted at the top of the motor shaft...earlier motors had a tiny nylon ball that mated with the speed selector switch, while newer versions made a slight change. But you could always remove and transplant the top section of one motor to another by removing the tiny screws. But regardless of what you decide on doing, rest assured there will be no electrical issues or speed issues with changing out a Eumig motor...they're all the same electrically speaking.

Good luck!

[Tony Ferrara]

Thanks, I will certainly need it!

Forgot to mention a few other things: I have 2 spare spacemen lamps that I recenly bought. Only cost about $34 each. They are earmarked for my Bolex 18-5, since I am not in the mood to convert that one to halogen anytime soon. But I am not opposed to using them in the 712. With all the projectors I have in the rotation, I should be set for awhile. I am still using the spaceman lamp that was in the Bolex when I bought it well over 10 years ago. I also recently set the voltage higher to 125 -- didn't notice it any dimmer, and the lamp will last longer.

Also, my 810D developed "slop" in the focusing long ago, due to wear on that plastic piece that pulls the lens in and out via that small slot on the lens. I never liked that design. The 712 uses the screw-in lens for better focusing.

I know the 810 won't accept Standard 8mm if I go to a 2-pinned claw. As I mentioned in my long post, , I only intend this to be a machine for Super 8 sound.

Interesting though, my dual-8 Elmo (FP8-C) and dual-8 B&H (45[x]) use 2-pin claws. I think I read in the archived forum a statement that a 2 pin claw works in a dual-8 machine because one of the pins doesn't engage a sprocket for Standard 8mm.
I believe I read that the only advantage of a 2-pin is for handling splices better, right? But that is a big advantage! I am going to proceed with caution though, since claw adjustments are tricky, as I have experienced with my Elmo ST-1200HD. But in the Eumig's case, the timing is built-in due to the pins on the shutter shaft that engage with the slots in the long plastic piece (technical term!). So it is just getting the correct amount of exposure of the pins through the film gate.

Time is on my side, though. I am in no rush (I only have about 20 projectors), and I haven't even received the Van-Eck motor mounts yet. That NL tracking site they email you said I was supposed to get it Monday. Now the tracking site apologizes that I haven't yet received it, but only shows that it reached the U.S. This is a big country -- I assume it is somewhere on the East Coast!

The other point is everything is reversible -- if I am not satisfied with the 810 rebuild, I can always revert to the 712 rebuild.

I did notice that nylon ball on the 712 motor -- forgot to mention it -- the only apparent difference from the motor in the 810D. The way the 810D works is that a lever on the switch sticks out to push up that ball, rather than the 712 which inserts it's own nylon ball into a slot on the speed switch. I don't think it being there would affect the 810D anyway -- especially considering the stops in that machine broke and I removed them a long time ago. So I don't think I would have to remove and transplant the top section of one motor to another.

After sleeping on it last night, I will probably follow the path of least resistance first -- and the one that requires less work. Just put the motor mounts in the 712, clean up and lube the projector, and let it run with film. That will take all of an hour. When I have the time, I can always go the 810 route. Also, I have several projectors in the queue that I am working on -- currently my alternate Elmo ST-1200HD.

[Joseph Banfield]

As far as I'm aware all dual guage projectors must use a single claw pin because the pitch of the sprocket holes are different between the guages of film. The one exception I'm aware of is the Eumig 600 series dual 8 machine that uses a two pin claw where the pins are seperated by something like two inches to overcome the pitch difference between the guages (ingenious solution). I believe that same system was used on their earlier 500 series too. But I've never to date seen any other dual guage machine that didn't use a single pin claw.

[Tony Ferrara]

The Elmo FP and GP, and the B&H dual 8s definitely have 2 pins. I have all three. Nowhere close to 2 inch separation. Looks like a normal claw to me. The B&Hs that look like the pic attached. I have the 476P. I have never really used it except to run a test film through it -- but the lamp never worked. A friend of my father's gave it to him when I started getting back into the hobby after a long break. That was over 25 years ago. When you push the lever to change between the gauges, it also moves the claw back and forth. Also, unlike the Eumig, the pins are normal thickness -- the Elmos, too. But since the B&H is strictly claw driven, with no sprockets, I would never run a good film through it. Even the one rubber roller is just engaged during threading. At least my Sankyo 2000H Dualux has rubber rollers to help the movement of the film during proecjtion. That machine has a one-pinned claw.

It was always my theory that the reason my 810D rarely had a rock-steady picture for Standard 8 was because of the small pin, and the fact that it didn't move from side to side for guage changes. I frequently got some side to side as well as some up and down jitter for Standard 8mm. Even some super 8 films got some up and down jitter, but not all. Castle, Universal 8, and most other brands always ran perfectly. It was the Blackhawks that sometimes had some jitter.

Way back in the 70s, I had no idea you needed to clean and lubricate prints. It wasn't bad jitter where you lose the loops and the film chatters in the gate -- it was a subtle up and down motion that you quickly get used to. I remember not thinking it was unusual since even at the movies during the credits you could detect some up and down jitter. During the film proper it was not noticeable in the theater. But now it's all digital...that's why I haven't been to the movies in a long time. I can watch digital at home on a big screen TV. But that's a subject for another time and another thread.

Meanwhile, my motor mounts didn't arrive again today.

[Joseph Banfield]

Tony, thanks for letting me know there are actually dual guage machines using a two pin claw. I would have never guessed it was possible.

[Tony Ferrara]

You're welcome. Despite having that B&H for over 25 years, I never used it and never really examined it too closely until when I recently checked the claw out of curiosity. I have used it sometimes for parts -- even just screws, rollers, and retaining clips when I needed them for other brands of projectors. For awhile, I never even knew they were called "retaining clips", so I couldn't even ask about them in hardware stores. Do they even sell them. I would have said something like, "I need those small, round things that clip onto rods to hold gears on", and they would have looked at me like I was from Mars!

BTW, do they make a special tool to remove and replace them? Again, to ask in a hardware store, I would have to first ask about the clips as above, then ask for a tool for them -- then I'd be thrown out of the store like a lunatic! I use a combination of my fingers, a screwdriver, and needle-nose pliers. Inevitably, I wind up bleeding, and frequently lose them on the floor (where they are un-findable -- when you die, you get them all back, just like all the umbrellas and loose change you lost in couches during your lifetime.) When they fall into the machine, the grease on them makes them stick to wherever they landed, so shaking the machine does nothing. One recently fell out of a machine I was working on that I had lost just a few day before. Sometimes they re-appear year later! They have a mind of their own -- I believe they might even be another life-form!

Well, still no Van-Eck motor mounts -- the NL tracking site today said something weird that I don't remember. But it has arrived in the country of destination -- that's all that really matters, right?

Question with no answer: Why did Eumig build a tank of a machine that uses a cheap plasticy part for the mount. Why did it even have to be a separate part? Particularly on the side of the motor facing you from the back of the machine. There is the metal fan cover, on which you attach another metal piece with a trapezoid-shaped hole in it, in which you place a cheap grade-z plastic piece, also trapezoid-shaped, which in the middle has a round hole, in which is inserted a brass tube, in which the axle of the motor sits.

Pic courtesy of Graham Ritchie in an archived thread, for those not familiar with it: https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-b...e=P1040238.JPG

Funny, but all that was left in the 712 were the brass tubes. Where the heck did the plastic disintegrate into? At least in my 810 they were still there but then broke as I previously described.

Anyway, I bet the guy who worked for Eumig who decided to use plastic for that piece to save 5 cents a projector was the same guy who worked for Bell & Howell who decide to use a plastic screw in an otherwise mostly metal machine -- which I complained about in another thread.

Didn't they anticipate that 50 years later we would still be using these machines???