Creating a super 8 film feature that’s not available.

[Scott Walker]

Hi all.

I am super interested to know if and how people can make new feature length super 8s to project of movies that aren’t available normally. Is it possible and if so what’s the process and who offers this service?

I imagine you might need to get permission to create it but also who can even pull this off, with what equipment? Would it involve loads of rolls of ektachrome or is the film made a different way?

I would love to know the process and any links to equipment that can do it and places that offer that service, absolutely fascinating.

ive recently got into projecting and with help from some wonderful people I’m up and running and just super interested in all the processes around it. I’ve recently developed my own tri-x and projected it and it was rather gratifying so have now purchased a limo tank to get more consistent results (I just threw a reel in a larger 35mm tank). I’m keep to know if there was a way to get features made for projecting as it’s something I know nothing about or the machines/materials involved. Any insight would be lovely.

[Osi Osgood]

Well, the short answer is that it IS possible, however, the cost would be incredible, as, if you were to do so with Ektachrome, each cassette has approximately two minutes of film footage, so, let's say your feature film is 90 minutes, you'd need 45 cassettes. Now, imagine how much each cassette is? Then, after splicing it all together, you would need to add a magnetic stripe for sound. No, the best way to go, would be to make a negative of your favorite film. This costs upwards of around 4000.00. then, you could get prints made from that negative, at around 800.00 or so dollars a pop, with mag striping adding around another hundred per print. At this point, all you need to do is mag stripe your print. Having said all of this, before you would make any print of any film, you would need to be sure as to what copyrights are on said feature, as, you don't want to go thru all the trouble of making your cherished print and end up in prison for copyright infringement. Lots of fun!

[Scott Walker]

Wow ok so this makes sense and knew it would be expensive. I’m more interested in the process as it’s clearly a lot of work and interesting. Had a couple of questions based on this answer if that’s ok.

How do you make a negative and what is the source material and then how do you make a positive from it for projecting? What’s used for this as a medium. I know this for individual shots on say a normal 35mm film camera but for cine that must be quite the machine. Wondered what can do that.

sound is a whole world I don’t know anything about so are there any resources On that. Like how do you add sound to super 8, the two tiny magnetic lines, I’d love to know how that’s done and if there’s a way to do it at home even roughly. Fascinating. Thanks for your insight on this

[Osi Osgood]

I'll try to answer each question, but may not have enough time to answer it in one post. We actually have differing opinions as to how to approach the negative. The "classical" way is to obtain the source material, which had always been a celluloid film print. You could use 16mm ( as when I did my classic commercial collection, "Saturday morning madness"), but best results would be with 35mm. Having obtained said material, you then need to search out an optical printer which will allow you to maken a negative, which is simply a "reverse image" of the original, ( I just explain that in case you have no knowledge of such). The negative allows you to photograph on your film that said negative, but when you print out the film, that negative comes out as a positive. The only functioning film lab with the ability to do so, is a German lab. If there is somewhere else in the world for one, you'd have to locate it. The other option is to make a negative from a digital source, best being a Blu-ray, as you don't have the potential of artifice on the celluloid print that would be printed into the negative. Someone else will have to explain as to how to make a negative from a digital source, as I have only pursued the classic method.

[Mark McLaughlin]

Wow. More power to you Scott! Keep us updated please.

[Scott Walker]

Wow absolutely fascinating!

ok so this is all amazing and I had no idea of this process at all and certainly not the optical printer. What’s the name of the German film lab? Incredible.

[Steve Lee]

Hi Scott.
I will try to carry on from where Osi left off on the digital side of this process. The first system was developed by Disney in the mid 70s as they needed to place computer graphics onto film for the feature film Tron, the results were pretty spectacular considering the technology for this time. As we have moved on into the digital age so has this process for transferring files onto film.
The piece of kit is known as a Film Recorder, they come in all different shapes and sizes depending on what gauge of film is being used in them, but they are incredibly expensive to buy, two-three hundred thousand a pop!

They comprise of two parts, the main machine where the film goes and a very high power computer system to drive it.
The digital file or movie is fed into the computer. the computer uses a piece of software called Raster. This software takes the digital file frame by frame and breaks the image down on each frame into R.G.B (Red /Green /Blue) this information is sent to the main machine one colour at a time per frame, where it is then burnt onto the film negative buy a three pass laser system one for each colour, pixel by pixel.
The whole process can take up to several weeks to transfer an entire movie on to film, but the end result can be jaw droppingly stunning, as they now produce them with 8k resolution per frame, this is the equivalent of VistaVision on 35mm film.
The principle of the system works in the same way as three strip Technicolor, taking the three primary colours in monochrome format and placing them on top of each other to produce full colour.

Without these machines we would have never had seen the likes of Pixar's Toy Story and Monsters inc, being able to be shown on 35mm in cinemas.
I just wish someone would produce a Super 8 version of one. It would be the answer to all of our dreams.
I hope Scott that this makes some sense, as it is a very difficult thing to explain in writing.
Steve.

[Osi Osgood]

Fantastic, Steve! Certainly something that I couldn't have answered. More tips on the old school way. Be sure to have your source material as clean as possible ahead of time as, any dust or artifice of any kind will be printed into the negative. This is especially true of scratches. One option that printers can have is "wet gate" printing, in which there is a incredibly thin layer of fluid that, as the film passes thru the printer, the scratches existing on the source material, are filled in and the negative can actually look better than the source material. Another factor is doing your best to use 35mm, or the earliest or closest to the original release of the source, as, with every generation down from from first release, there will be more grain to the image, as well as issues with less definition to the image. This means that the contrast will be less. Depending on how far from the first generation materials, will show up on the negative. There are occasions in the history of super 8, where, for instance, on Black and White films, the film has been duped so many times that there are literally no grey tones, just way to bright of whites and way too deep of blacks. Perhaps a better analogy would be audio cassettes. If you record a favorite song, it sounds pretty good right off the LP or CD, with just a little tape hiss, but now take that cassette and record onto another cassette from the cassette source! With each recording down, you get more hiss to the recording and, obviously, a less satisfying audio experience. The same with negatives made from farther and farther film sources from the original source.

[Scott Walker]

Hi Scott.
I will try to carry on from where Osi left off on the digital side of this process. The first system was developed by Disney in the mid 70s as they needed to place computer graphics onto film for the feature film Tron, the results were pretty spectacular considering the technology for this time. As we have moved on into the digital age so has this process for transferring files onto film.
The piece of kit is known as a Film Recorder, they come in all different shapes and sizes depending on what gauge of film is being used in them, but they are incredibly expensive to buy, two-three hundred thousand a pop!

They comprise of two parts, the main machine where the film goes and a very high power computer system to drive it.
The digital file or movie is fed into the computer. the computer uses a piece of software called Raster. This software takes the digital file frame by frame and breaks the image down on each frame into R.G.B (Red /Green /Blue) this information is sent to the main machine one colour at a time per frame, where it is then burnt onto the film negative buy a three pass laser system one for each colour, pixel by pixel.
The whole process can take up to several weeks to transfer an entire movie on to film, but the end result can be jaw droppingly stunning, as they now produce them with 8k resolution per frame, this is the equivalent of VistaVision on 35mm film.
The principle of the system works in the same way as three strip Technicolor, taking the three primary colours in monochrome format and placing them on top of each other to produce full colour.

Without these machines we would have never had seen the likes of Pixar's Toy Story and Monsters inc, being able to be shown on 35mm in cinemas.
I just wish someone would produce a Super 8 version of one. It would be the answer to all of our dreams.
I hope Scott that this makes some sense, as it is a very difficult thing to explain in writing.
Steve.

This is amazing!!!!! Thank you!!!

[Scott Walker]

Fantastic, Steve! Certainly something that I couldn't have answered. More tips on the old school way. Be sure to have your source material as clean as possible ahead of time as, any dust or artifice of any kind will be printed into the negative. This is especially true of scratches. One option that printers can have is "wet gate" printing, in which there is a incredibly thin layer of fluid that, as the film passes thru the printer, the scratches existing on the source material, are filled in and the negative can actually look better than the source material. Another factor is doing your best to use 35mm, or the earliest or closest to the original release of the source, as, with every generation down from from first release, there will be more grain to the image, as well as issues with less definition to the image. This means that the contrast will be less. Depending on how far from the first generation materials, will show up on the negative. There are occasions in the history of super 8, where, for instance, on Black and White films, the film has been duped so many times that there are literally no grey tones, just way to bright of whites and way too deep of blacks. Perhaps a better analogy would be audio cassettes. If you record a favorite song, it sounds pretty good right off the LP or CD, with just a little tape hiss, but now take that cassette and record onto another cassette from the cassette source! With each recording down, you get more hiss to the recording and, obviously, a less satisfying audio experience. The same with negatives made from farther and farther film sources from the original source.

my goodness. Thanks so much for your time on helping shed light on the processes at play here. Absolutely wonderful.