Standard8’s Standard fps?

[Joerg Polzfusz]

Hello!

I know that 16fps was the original "standard speed" for amateur home movies and that 24fps was the "standard speed" for reduction prints made from 35mm negatives and also for some very, very ambitious amateurs.
But Wikipedia says: "…In the early 1960s, a new filming and projection standard of 18 frames per second was introduced…" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_8_mm_film )
But to be honest, I never encountered any D8-camera with 18fps! And all my literature from the 1970s/1980s never mention this change or fps-rate?? So: is the Wikipedia wrong? Unfortunately, it doesn’t list any source for this sentence.

Happy new year!
Jörg

[Brian Fretwell]

I would have thought that 18fps for projection only came in when dual Standard and Super 8 machines were introduced. I too have never heard of an 18fps standard 8 camera.

[Dominique De Bast]

The standard 8 Paillard Bolex camera allows to film at 18fps.

[Thomas Dafnides]

Any spring driven variable speed standard 8mm camera can be adjusted to approximate 18fps. There were many of them.

[Joerg Polzfusz]

It might be possible to adjust cameras. But when taking a look at the cameras in Canon's and Meopta's online museums, then their Double8-cameras cannot shoot at 18fps at all (without modification after having left the factory).
The above Bolex (and some more according to BolexCollector) might have been the rare exception where the camera supports 18fps out of box and where 18fps is even highlighted as "default".

https://global.canon/en/c-museum/cam...cine&s2=8mmcam

https://meoptahistory.com/?id=313

http://www.bolexcollector.com/cameras/h8rex4.html

Thanks for pointing me to Bolex, Dominique! Even though their 1950s projectors for Standard8 have all been running at 16fps, their models from the 1960s didn’t even support 16fps, but only ran at 5 and 18fps, e.g.: http://www.bolexcollector.com/projectors/185.html

That's bizarre: Who increased the "default speed"? Was this a new SMPTE recommendation/standard? Or only a "Bolex thing" (trying to force their users to buy new cameras and projectors)? Or did Kodak/Agfa/… wanted to have this feature in order to sell more film?

[Osi Osgood]

Quite odd, though, on almost any "package" sound short or cartoon, you are required to project or have your speed at 24 fps, as the original source material is 24 fps. For those who could shoot home movies with sound on standard 8, was the speed variable for sound?

[Ken Finch]

To the best of my knowledge the standard filming speed of cameras was always 16fps. However, most could take. Single frames, and the other speeds indicated on the dial on the picture of the Bolex, but not 18fps. Much depended on the cost of the camera you could afford.The cheaper the camera, the fewer the facilities. The 18fps was introduced when magnetic sound stripe arrived on super8 cameras. There were never any standard 8 sound cameras and the 16mm sound cameras ran at 24fps and were optical sound prior to the invention of magnetic striped camera stock. 18fps was introduced as the lowest speed to provide reasonable sound quality. I base this information from memory of various articles in various Cinema related books and magazines, many of which e.g. Amateur Cine World I have disposed of. Ken Finch.

[Dominique De Bast]

There were never any standard 8 sound cameras

Ken, I think you forgot the Fairchild camera.

[Ed Gordon]

To the best of my knowledge the standard filming speed of cameras was always 16fps. However, most could take. Single frames, and the other speeds indicated on the dial on the picture of the Bolex, but not 18fps. Much depended on the cost of the camera you could afford.The cheaper the camera, the fewer the facilities. The 18fps was introduced when magnetic sound stripe arrived on super8 cameras. There were never any standard 8 sound cameras and the 16mm sound cameras ran at 24fps and were optical sound prior to the invention of magnetic striped camera stock. 18fps was introduced as the lowest speed to provide reasonable sound quality. I base this information from memory of various articles in various Cinema related books and magazines, many of which e.g. Amateur Cine World I have disposed of. Ken Finch.

Ken, your summary is 100% correct. The Wikipedia article is also 100% correct^*. All of my 8mm movies I made with a Kodak hand-crank camera are 16fps. My Super 8 movies are either 18fps or 24fps (the only speeds available on my Sankyo S8 camera).

The sentence in the Wiki article states:

In the early 1960s, a new filming and projection standard of 18 frames per second was introduced, although many cameras and projectors included a multi-speed facility.

It is poorly worded and should state:

In the 1965, a new filming and projection standard called "Super8" was introduced. Among the many changes made, the standard frames per second (FPS) was changed from 16fps to 18fps or 24fps, although many cameras and projectors included a multi-speed facility.

[Ed Gordon]

Ken, I think you forgot the Fairchild camera.

The Fairchild Cinephonic Eight was a commercial failure introduced a few years before Kodak brought out Super 8.

The camera ran at 24fps. The maximum load of film was 50ft (split after processing = 100ft reg 8). You could load "silent" 25ft loads in also.

The Cinephonic film was Ansco stock available in AnscoChrome color (iso 32 tungsten) or B&W. Kodak did not support the camera with mag striped film.

The sound was recorded 56 frames ahead of the picture. Hard to edit! Info on the mag track from a Kodak ad for their 8mm sound projector.

Source: https://cinematography.com/index.php...ht-sound-zoom/

[Osi Osgood]

It would be interesting to see any of this and I film stock with the soundtrack and all. Off to YouTube!

[Thomas Dafnides]

8mm Anscochrome was an interesting film stock. Although, not as fine grained as Kodachrome....the unique palette of colors had a richer saturated look that I found very pleasing . The Anscochrome I have today from 1966 show no signs of fading. I also liked Agfachrome which had less color saturation than Kodachrome but very natural and just about as fine grained, but alas , in just the last five years, my Agfachrome films from 60s are losing color and shifting to a blue tint.

[Dominique De Bast]

It would be interesting to see any of this and I film stock with the soundtrack and all.

You can see this camera presented by so, sadly dead now : Fairchild Cinephonic 8mm Sound Camera - YouTube and see pictures on this Belgian site of the camera and accessories (the texts are in French, however) :
Fairchild camera - Site de collection cameras projecteurs (cinecameras.be)

[Shane C. Collins]

This is an interesting topic! I've always assumed 18 fps began to show up in the late 1950's. Take for example the Bolex B-8SL introduced in 1959, had a single running speed of 18 fps. Refer to this link....http://www.bolexcollector.com/cameras/b8sl.html Also the Bolex B-8L introduced in 1958 had a variable speeds of 12, 16, 18, 24, 32, 48, and 64 frames per second. Refer to this link...http://www.bolexcollector.com/cameras/b8l.html
The Bolex 18-5 projector from 1961 also had a standard running speed of 18 fps. I haven't looked at other manufacturers to compare with the Bolex cameras mentioned here. I have several Bolex Standard 8 cameras with these same running speeds. This is why I've always assumed the standard speed of 16 fps began to be replaced with 18 fps by 1958-59.

It's also interesting to note that my Bolex P2 Standard 8 camera from 1962 has the 18 fps highlighted in red. All the other speeds were the same color. See photo below.