Of Stripes and Recording ...

[John Taylor]

Is there any chance of paste magnetic flaking off of the film? If not presently, is it only a matter of time? In that case, optical sound super 8 reigns supreme, as it's printed directly on the stock. ( Snicker ).

Yes is the answer, I have one film, one froggy evening, which I have had for well over ten years and as well as being able to hear the obvious, you can see little bits on the stripe coming away. I also understand Jurassic park and Chicken run suffered severely with it, these cannot be the only ones, time will tell. The new releases I read about seem good but only time will tell when like the Derann paste stripe, it will be too late to do anything about it.

[Brian Fretwell]

Well if the Kodak pre-stripe ran out in 1990/1 the early derann striped releases can be more than 30 years old, so problems should have shown up by now. As the machine was used for Walton releases if any of them were on Agfa Polyester stock they would be quite a bit older and none of mine have any problems - yet!

[John Taylor]

I think a lot of collectors miss the point about the later stripes, however, I do want to be clear that if it wernt for this newer stripes then from 1990/1 collectors would not be enjoying all the titles that were produced since then, thats a point I wish to make clear.
Since I made contact with two fellow collectors in my region, (I was beginning to think I was the only cine collector in Cornwall), I have learnt a lot about the later prints. Many of them being top titles which sadly have become over priced for collectors like myself.
The point I refer to at the start of this reply is this, the later stripes are not of the materials projectors heads were designed for, the quality may be there in the sound but it is often quite hissy and bumpy on the sound, I've heard this more often than not, also, get a decent magnifying glass and take a closer look at it, it is often rough and uneven and is not the best thing for the sound heads. With projectors being very old now, they can do without any unnecessary harsh wear. Fortunately, my 8mm collection is mostly made up of films on pre stripe stock, I do have a fair number of later titles but I dont show them anywhere near as often as I use to as the 16mm has more or less taken over, I find the image and sound a better quality all together.

[Paul Adsett]

One thing I think worth reiterating here is the huge benefit of eliminating any pressure on the thin track 2 head when playing mono films. Its always the track 2 head that wears out first, turning a stereo capable projector into a mono projector. Presumably for most collectors the majority of their prints are mono with only the occasional stereo print. So you can eliminate all the unnecessary wear on the track 2 head by lifting off or removing the plastic pressure fingers for that track. The Eumig S900 series stereo and twin track projectors are all designed with a "plug in' head presser assembly which can be removed and replaced in about 15 seconds. All you need to do is find an additional presser assembly from another 900 series machine and cut off the plastic fingers for track 2. You then have two presser assemblies, one for mono prints and one for stereo prints. Theoretically this can be done on other projectors but it is much more of a hassle. For the Elmo ST1200 and GS1200 you can go in and simply remove two of the spring loaded plungers for track 2 but its a partial disassemby operation. But if you have two GS or ST projectors it might be worth dedicating one machine to just stereo prints, and remove the two presser pins for track 2 on the other one.

[Osi Osgood]

Paul, I am pretty sure that this is exactly what happened to one of my Eumig 926 stereo projectors! I noticed on the "pressure pad", when I took it off it appeared to have part on those pressure pads removed, which I thought strange at the time. Now ... I know why!

[John Taylor]

In reality, how many collectors really need the balance stripe for sound?
Let me refer you to this great piece from the super8 database,

https://blog.super8database.com/2022...ors-and-stats/

Most people dont have stereo, those who do probably only have a handful of stereo films, and those who use their projectors for recording films into stereo are few and far between so I cant really see any benefit in messing around with head pressure pads just to save the balance track wear on a head.
A lot of problems are those machines that simply have the softer heads, the Eumigs and as I found out recently talking to an ex engineer in the North, The Bauers, Their balance track heads are know for wearing, one for me to avoid if I ever wanted a stereo machine by the sound of it.
Initially, the balance stripe was for a purpose, to keep the film focus across the picture although I have a few films with only a main stripe but I cant see any problem on them as far as focusing is concerned, maybe it's not so good on other machines.

[Carl Ingram]

How was the brown strip applied, was it painted on ?

[Lee McCaffrey]

In a manner Carl, the liquid mixture coats a wheel with a raised profile which then transfers over to the film surface. This is the same for the brown and grey stripes, only the formula changed.
Originally the balance stripe was purely there to aid winding on the reel, it doesn't seem to affect focus. The fact that the new releases use a single main laminate stripe with no complaints seems to confirm this.
To put it simply I don't think any of the projector manufacturers ever thought their products would still be running decades in the future. For many projectors the soundheads would have been replaced during routine servicing along with belts etc. So not so much a design problem, more an obsolescence one

[Osi Osgood]

I agree that these projectors have held up incredibly well. In most cases, the older the projectors, the better they have held up. Even many of the best later projectors had/have a plastic build instead of a hard metal body. The ELMO's tended to have a metal body to the end. However, the ELMO'S, no matter how well made the body are just like a classic muscle car ... Constant maintenance. I digress. Quite often, the balance stripe was used to or for adding "live commentary" to home movies and such. I am pretty sure that stereo was mostly an after thought, though, with twin track capability, folks were bound to put 2 plus 2 together and desire stereo. The glue on that Kodak prestripe has certainly stood the test of time. Like others, I have never ran into a peeling

Stripe, which has been more the case with later releases, when super 8 distributors were clamoring for a way to continue with super 8, and many thanks for the clamoring! I mean, for society in general, this was counted out as a dead format as of the early 1980's, and here we are, 40 years later, actually having new releases out there, with sound, and in most cases, nearly looking better than ever before! And those prints made after it was counted out? I just acquired a long sought after print, Who Framed Roger Rabbit. The image quality is literally a good 16mm, with lovely agfa color and still, to this day, even with our large 4K televisions, I am still privileged to see it as I saw it in 1987, film grain and all! And yes, with a very nice magnetic stripe, thank you very much!

[John Taylor]

The ELMO's tended to have a metal body to the end. However, the ELMO'S, no matter how well made the body are just like a classic muscle car ... Constant maintenance. I digress.

I must disagree with this Osi, but I get that it is your opinion, have you had bad experiences with one?

My cine friends both have Elmo's and aside the maintenance people should be doing, but often dont, these are real workhorses and great performers.
I understand many of the new releases are recorded on Elmo GS projectors, from the few shows I have seen with these, the sound is first class, no hum and really the loudest and clearest sound, mostly metal components ensures longer wear and from what I see, they appear to be easy to get into for maintenance. One of mates also has a T610, (Bauer i think) and apparently is his second one, like his first one, the balance track no longer works, or is extremely low, again, a quality machine with soft heads.
Having to do constant maintenance is a myth, unless you have one that is never maintained in which case, like every machine, it will let you down and/or damage film. Sadly, I think many projectors have just been stood still for so long or simply just under used, they have little or no maintenance and quite often, as I know is the case, people tinker with their machines and then mess it up further only then to expect a real engineer, (if there are any left) to put it right and when they do, moan about the cost.
If I could afford it, I would buy one but unfortunately, finding one, (or any decent make) with some service history is very rare. With the prices of films today, I would worry about showing them in fear of damage.

Again though, back to the stripe thing, whatever the opinion of grey/brown pre stripes are, the collector today is stuck with what we have, again though, most of my purchases today are 16mm so it isn't something I really worry or care about these days, fortunately, my 8mm collection is small with around 70/80% of it being on pre-stripe stock so I kind of feel safe with what I have.

[Paul Adsett]

[QUOTE]so I cant really see any benefit in messing around with head pressure pads just to save the balance track wear on a head.[/QUOTE]
John, I agree with you that most S8 collectors don't get in to re-recording their films in stereo. But keep in mind that S8 stereo can be amazingly good if the stripe is of good quality. For those of us who like the greatly improved sound impact of stereo, the preservation of that little track 2 head becomes important, at least so on the excellent Eumig 900 series stereo machines. which have really superb stereo sound quality, but unfortunately also have soft heads.

[John Taylor]

Paul, i agree 100%, those who do rerecord I do get that, but it is a small fraction of collectors who do. For me it's all about the big screen and image quality, sound has to be very good and if it is, a decent amp does the rest.
The stereo side is fine but unless the audience is sat in the centre, the benefits are lost, I've seen this a few times now, many collectors dont have a dedicated film room and will often bang up the projector one end with a tri pod screen the other, but for those lucky enough to have the gear and enjoy re recording then the long may they continue
I've been reading about a company in Italy who stripe and re record, does anyone know what stripe they use and who they are?

[Osi Osgood]

That would probably be "Cine Magnetics" run by Alberto. Yes, I have and will soon be a "have had" an ELMO GS1200, which worked OK for the first few months, started having one problem after another, then became a pain in the arse and I have given up on it. This has been quite fascinating and, though I am repeating myself a little, I have learned a lot more about the two stripes, what they're chemical make up, and have heard new words in association with super 8 that I wouldn't have even thought of before ... SLURRY!

[John Taylor]

From what I gather, the GS is a very complex machine and does require people who what there doing to fix them and set them up properly.

I dont know anyone who has one but I know two people who have the 1200HD which appears to be a lot easier to maintain and while they are good quality, they are much less complicated than the GS.

Cine magnetics, not much online about them, has anyone here had a film striped by them? Do they use the paste stripe or proper tape type?

[Lee McCaffrey]

John you will find a great amount of information on this forum and the archived older 8mmforum about Alberto's striping services. By all accounts it is an accurate reproduction of the old Kodak brown stripe, the old grey stripe can be removed and a fresh stripe applied.