Keystone K-109 Feed Spool Locked Up

[Joe Fenwick]

Have a Keystone K-109 projector I had picked up a few weeks ago. Never used it before. Gone through the user manual to familiarize myself with it, did some cleaning and lubed what I understand need it, and then realized that the feed reel will only turn while rewinding. It will not turn in the forward direction (to feed film) or during the reverse; however, will during rewind. In the forward direction it feels like it's locked up. I took the upper arm cover off and don't see an obvious reason for it jamming and thought before going too much farther I'd check here to see if there is something simple I am overlooking?

If I'm not overlooking an obvious simple item, what might some potential causes? My first thought is that switch on the upper arm that reads "Off Rewind On" that the manually changes gears. The user manual says " . . . the rewind lever should be moved to the "on" position BEFORE STARTING THE MOTOR." My guess is this is where the problem lays.

Any ideas?

[Janice Glesser]

Joe Fenwick My 16mm K-161 operates much the same as the K-109. The feed reel doesn't turn in forward. Only the take-up reel turns which pulls the film thru the projector. However this means the feed reel must disengage and turn freely. Make sure the 2 switches you mentioned are set to Forward before starting the motor. This holds true for setting the switches for rewind which will then engage the feed reel ... disengage the take-up reel, and pull the film back onto the feed reel.

[Joe Fenwick]

Thank you Janice. The feed reel is apparently not disengaging to allow the feel reel spool to turn freely. It will only turn in the rewind direction. My guess is the problem is in the linkage of the "Off Rewind On" switch. Disassembly to take a look at that does not look to be an easy task. I've been looking for schematic diagrams showing the inner working of the machine and how best to approach dismally; however, the only thing I find is an eBay sale "Tex" of some 33 vintage projector manuals which include a parts catalogue for a number of Keystone projectors prior to the K-109. Included in that catalogue is the K-108 and K-160 which appear to be similar to the K-109 and K-161 projectors I have. But for $145 I don't know that the catalogues will offer a great deal of information and the remaining 32 manuals I cannot presently use. I've emailed "Tex"asking if he'd sell me just that specific catalogue or a pdf of the two projectors and haven't gotten a reply. I have been searching the internet for a service manual for the two projectors. Came across a camera shop in Seattle that rents a Keystone K-161 and emailed them about a service manual, thinking if they rent one they likely service it. They replied that such a manual does not exist and technicians worked on them without one. I find that hard to believe; but it possible. Currently I plan to place cameras on tripods to photograph the disassembly so I've some record to reference should I need it. I am open to suggestions.

[Joe Fenwick]

Believe I've found the problem. Within the upper spooling arm are three gears riveted to a plate. These three gears are fused with rust and corrosion to the extent they will not move. I've got the plate with gears soaking in penetrating fluid. Though the belts appear to be in decent condition I am thinking it may be a good time to replace them if I can find belts for the projector.

[Charlie Peich]

Hello Joe!

Good thing you figured it out about the gears being fused together. I have the Regal K-109 projector and fortunately, all functions are working. My K-109 (announced in a 10/1951 ad) was the 1st version after the K-108 Commander models, but before the K-109-D model where 5 oiling ports were removed. That is the only Keystone product I own.

Finding replacement belts will be like trying to find Service Manuals. You could always try carefully coating the belt with a rubber renew. There is a guy on eBay that sells all kinds of belts, you could contact him and he may be able to make a new belt for you. isellprojectorbelts is his eBay handle. One thing to remember, when you store the projector, make sure the rewind lever is in the 'Off' position. This will release the tension (stretching) of the belt. When it is turned to on, the belt stretches to make the reel turn counterclockwise for rewinding the film.

Manuals.... I have never seen any for sale, nor a site to copy them from. I believe Keystone only had the factory in Boston for manufacturing and for servicing their cameras and projectors. In the very scarce ads I have found for Keystone, there is never any mention of servicing the equipment. Keystone had (besides the one in Boston) 6 other 'offices' around the country, but never any mention of servicing at these offices. The only article I've found about sending equipment back to Keystone in Boston was an article in 1952 about converting 16mm cameras from double perf to single perf. It was advised (by Keystone) to send the Keystone 16mm camera back to the Boston facility for this modification.

It is a shame about 'Tex' and his manuals. He announced about year ago that he was stopping his manual supply business. I think it was about his wife being ill. He sold off copies for awhile on eBay, then just put the remaining manuals in a bundle on eBay. He also mentioned about declining interest in manuals anyway. I had bought a nice copy of the B&H 122 8mm projector from him.

Another place to look for some Keystone paper is 'Pacific Rim Camera'. They have a file with info and paper on all kinds of photo gear. No service manuals however.

You could search google patent to see if there is a patent filed for the projector. Years ago, I looked up a patent for the 16mm camera and one was on file. Seems Keystone used the same movement design for all their 16mm cameras. I looked on my projector and could not find any patent numbers.

Joe, you mentioned in an earlier post that you had 2 K-109s. Is your other K-109 working properly?

I hope the steps you took for freeing up those gears works for you!

Charlie (ex-Illinoisan)

BTW, Keystone made a K-109-Automatic projector for auto threading....

[Joe Fenwick]

Thank you for the note Charlie. Yes I have a total of three Keystone 8mm projectors now. Two K-109 and the K-109D. My brother is coming out from New York this week and will be stopping along the way to pick up two 16mm projectors I had accidentally come across; while searching for a service manual for the 8mm projectors (the Keystone K-161 and an Ampro Imperial). So the search for the manual was a total washout. The current owner inherited them from a relative who had passed sometime ago and was going to donate them to Goodwill. Promised the guy if I got them they would not become desk lamps or center pieces on a coffee table. Collecting and playing with this stuff is, in a very similar way to photography, a sickness I have maybe.

The K-109, I am currently opening, is in the worse condition of the three and was purchased as not working. Since I haven't had luck getting a service manual I was planning to open it anyway to take a look inside, practice cleaning procedure, inspection, and get it running if I can. So far it really depends on freeing up this gear assembly. Having run the working K-109 I was pretty sure there was a problem inside. I've been taking notes on my procedure as to what I am doing and what not to do next time around. I have also set up a full frame camera on a tripod with, shutter release, recording each step I take; such as, take a washer off take a picture of it, so I am sure not to misplace something during reassembly. Those plastic TV dinner trays really come in handy for keeping separate bins for screws, gears, washer, and such for each location. It's a fun project. I've moved from soaking the one gear assembly in penetrating fluid to soaking it in CLR (acid cleaning agent). Having found no luck searching the internet for belts I've decided to clean the belts just slightly with mink oil (these are leather belts).

I see "Tex" on eBay has sold the group of manuals I had mentioned yesterday. I was thinking of writing him to see how to contact the individual that had purchased that parts catalog; however, I am sort of making my own now. I also came across a typic from the May 2021 8mm forum when John Horning opened up his K-108 and attached a pdf summary of his procedure. I only found it today and will not be removing the worm drive to remove the center belt.

Thank you also for the heads up on releasing the tension on the rewind pulley. These being leather belts will not perform well being stored in a stretch position for long. I was wondering which is the lesser of the evils for using the mink oil on the belts. Mink oil will soften the leather but then it will also keep it from drying out. So I was thinking it may be best to apply a slight amount and not over do it. Am not sure if anyone has advice on which of the evils is a better path to follow: to mink or not to mink oil them?

The attached photo looks more like a K-109D. It is a very clean and beautiful machine.

[Joe Fenwick]

Meant to say . . . so the search for the service manuals on 8mm projectors was "not" a complete washout.

[Janice Glesser]

When I need a new build on a projector I make it with urethylene belting material I buy from Amazon. This might be an option for you unless the belt is some odd shape.

[Joe Fenwick]

I did a quick search and the found polyurethane belts. They appear to be fairly inexpensive and easily joined by heating a razor blade (or thin metal) held with a pair of vise-grips. Will order some and keep it on hand to try in the future. For now, I've nearly most of projector reassembled using the old belts; which actually look pretty good really. The gear assembly cleaned up, with a little rust pitting, soaking in CLR a couple days to remove the rust pack then a good soak over night penetrating fluid.

One big surprise for anyone disassembling a Keystone K-109 is the second, hidden, spring while pulling the spooler shaft for cleaning and re-greasing. I was lucky to catch it, literally.

[Janice Glesser]

Joe I think documenting your process is going to be very helpful for others. It appears at least lately that a lot of people are getting these old Keystone projectors.

When I use the urethane belting material I heat up a soldering iron that has a flat blade. I attach the soldering iron to one of the clips on my helping hands to hold it steady. I hold the urethane tubing against each side of the blade as it melts and then slowly retract it and do my best to get it lined up straight. You have to be quick because it cool's very rapidly. I also saw a guy on YouTube... I'll post the link if I find it... He used a butter knife that heated with a hand torch. He held the knife still in a vise grip.

This thread might be helpful:
http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bi...=010838#000005
.

[Jay Butterman]

Just wondering if you would be willing to document how to open the projector to get to everything to lube and change the belts? I am a novice and a little nervous about opening it up without some guidance. Thanks so much in advance, Jay

[Stephen Foust]

Is it possible to get a PDF copy of the user manual for the Keystone Commander K-108? Just found one in my dad's trove of gadgets he left behind plus about a thousand slides dating back to 1954.

[Stephen Foust]

I meant he left behind thousands of 8mm film. Doh.