New Curse Of Frankenstein recent release 400 foot version .

[Osi Osgood]

I have said, repeatedly, that I have these digests, they didn't just pop up in my conversation out of nowhere, and that I have bought other various recent releases. Go through the 8mm forum throughout the years and you'll find this to be obviously true, though I kind of doubt that your interested in the truth. As for doing reviews of films, I have always advised every person that I do reviews for, that I will honestly assess the print I have reviewed. Your young, Ruben ( I assume this by your photo, I might be wrong), so you might not understand that it is a long held, honorable process of accepting a test or demo of an item, any sort of item, not just film, for a professional review. As for myself, not even counting the extensive reviews I have done in over twenty years on this forum, ( mostly reviews of optical sound super 8 prints, also easy to prove), I have had my articles published in German, English and Italian super 8/film guage magazines, which many can no doubt also offer proof of, as well as countless articles in "Reel Images" magazine, as well as articles by others concerning my own Super 8 release, " Saturday Morning Madness", ( which even when asked, I would provide a book long article on the history of the animated TV commercial as a neat extra ). I champion super 8, whether old school optical printers or the modern "method", But I am also a realist. Though you have lied about me over the last few days and have been quite abusive, I forgive you and I do hope that you have good success with your future Super 8 endeavors. Certainly, it is obvious that the Italian work is not amateurish, as anyone can clearly see, and there is no desire to tear down your own releases. When you start to speaks actual facts, then reply.

[Douglas Meltzer]

I doubt that there is anything to be gained by letting this continue. I'm closing this thread for now and will return to this later.

[Douglas Meltzer]

Let’s go back a bit here… Similar to Ruben, I thought Osi’s comment about seeing “the two prints side by side” meant that he had projected both prints. This was instead a reference to seeing the same screenshots that Philip has posted here in reply #24.

I previously mentioned that two pictures from a digital camera taken in succession can look different, yet perhaps one can get some idea of the color difference using screenshots, It would be difficult for me to judge sharpness and grain from these pictures. Ruben mentions blown out highlights and lack of definition, but I could only make that judgement upon seeing the print.

I am a fan of Andec’s work. I have purchased their prints that were released by The Reel Image, Dave Films, Dorun Films and Ultra 8 (A Drop of Water, beautiful job). Andec is a professional lab, but yes, there have been issues. These have been brought up on the Forum before. I have been aware of production delays as far back as 2012. I don’t say this to discredit the lab. With any type of production there are bound to be complications, and while this can be frustrating at the time, I have found that it was always worth the wait. I have never returned an Andec print.

Ruben, I’m not sure why the idea of a comparison is so unsettling. Ultra 8’s product has gotten rave reviews. This is just an opportunity to see two different prints of the same digital file struck by two different methods. In terms of it affecting the purchase of this release (and all others) the point is moot. The gentleman in Italy is in the business of making personal copies (his words) and does not want to deal with someone who is selling multiple prints. You mention that he is “anonymous,” a “mysterious person” yet you used his initials (since deleted) in one of your replies. Why do that? To show that you know who he is and could publicly name him? I’m sure you realize he is simply trying to avoid the kind of incident that you faced elsewhere.

Osi, I couldn’t disagree more about soliciting films (to keep) for review purposes. There are serious ethical concerns with that. Asking for a free print is akin to being compensated/paid by the distributor. Would we be told about it? If a reviewer is getting a print in exchange for a review, we would need to know so we can take that into consideration. It’s all about credibility. Not informing us that a print has been gifted for a review is a serious breach of trust. And promising a copy of the review before it's posted? The reviewer is clearly signaling that they are willing to make changes so that approval can be given. Let’s face it, that’s not a review, it’s a transaction.

[David Hardy]

Douglas am i correct in thinking that both of these latest releases of Curse Of Frankenstein on Super 8mm have been sourced from a digital masters ? Also do you know if both these releases and other recent releases on Super 8mm from such digital files are legal and are not in breach of any copyright restrictions ?

[Ruben Torrejon]

Hi Doug,

I am in no way afraid of comparison reviews (remember that in this case we’re not even talking about my own releases but someone else’s ).

I already replied you with a PM but I expose here my two main concerns:


1. Comparison reviews should not be based on minuscule and highly compressed jpegs. You must show HQ video too therefore you can also judge not only resolution, contrast et al… but also if there are MOTION ARTIFACTS .

2. The review should be transparent and done by a trusted reviewer, not by anyone COMMERCIALLY involved either now or in the recent time with the person or company releasing the said prints. Also, one that gets prints for positive reviews should not be allowed at all, it is clear, his opinion is clearly biased and useless. Those were my concerns as I expressed in previous posts on this thread.

To end my message, Doug, doing prints professionally is indeed very, very expensive and when you assume that you’re going to spend thousands of Euro, as myself, I feel the need to ask for a fair treatment as I exposed on my points above.

BTW, even if this post is not about any of my releases I want to clarify that ALL of my titles come from a negative, source is by no means digital. All sources are 35mm film restored in 4K. A NEW 16mm negative is created and then Super 8 reduction prints (with the highest quality ever achieved in Super 8) from it with true stereo magnetic tracks. I believe you have actual Andec prints and you have not returned a single one, so I assume you are happy with them. Mine are true film prints not amateurish copycats created with a cine camera filming off a video projection screen.

Hope this helps to clarify everything.


Regards, to all forum members,

Ruben Torrejon

[Mike Newell]

Actually it is ME that has the two prints - one from Andec and one from Italy. I purchased several prints from Italy earlier this year and posted pictures of them elsewhere in the forum. I was very pleased with the end result and mostly the PRICE. 7 Euros per minute. Includes print stripes and recording. The service is not fast.

Now, the reason that I have two copies and yes that does sound strange, is because I did the EDIT on the 400’ CURSE OF FRANKENSTEIN. My agreement for doing so was to receive a copy of the film - as produced and printed by ANDEC - as payment for my services. IT TOOK FOREVER to get this copy from ANDEC. Did I say FOREVER ? Yes, FOREVER.

Now receiving prints from Italy is not fast either but I also understand that the Italian operation is smaller - a one person shop - and not staffed like the larger operation in GERMANY (ANDEC). So I ordered CURSE form Italy at their reasonable prices in order to finally receive a copy of the work I did. Not long after I received the Italian print I heard that FINALLY Andec was gong to make prints of this movie. What took so long? Also, I was commissioned to do a 600’ edit for another film collector earlier this year. He has been waiting patiently for months for Andec to produce the negative so prints can be made. Months! I was told a couple of days ago that it will likely not happen until January 2025 at the earliest. Why?

In my opinion Andec has no excuse to delay this work for months. It makes no sense. It’s a larger operation and yeah I have heard that Ludwig lost his guy that does the negatives but then I also hear that he has been replaced. True? I have no idea. But what is true WAIT TIMES with Andec are frustrating. Maybe some have had better experience. But not the folks I have talked to. Italy is slow but then it’s a small shop in comparison . Understandable.

I will point out that both prints look great! Both sound GREAT but the Andec print seemed a bit louder - not a big deal. The ANDEC print has a mono polyester stripe - we’ve all heard about the difficulties Ludwig had printing the stripe properly on these prints in the beginning - sound fall off etc. THAT appears to be corrected now. In comparison, The Italian print uses a paste stripe with both track 1 and track 2.

I took photos with my iPhone of both of these prints. The iPhone is not great. It would be best to SCAN the frames to get a more accurate representation - but the pictures do show some differences. Mostly what I am seeing is more color saturation on the Italian prints. I understand this is because the custom printing system used there allows for some tweaking of the image. That is what I am told. And, the pictures I will post will bear this out. These pics are untouched - just arranged for side by side comparison.

This is not intended to suggest that Andec’s product is inferior in anyway. There are some who say their image is SHARPER. When projecting these I could not see that - but then I have a smaller 3’ x 4’ screen. I know some who project on a 5’ x 7’ screen and say the Italian print was not as sharp. I couldn’t tell but then I didn’t see them side by side. For my enjoyment the Italian Super 8mm product is just fine and meets my expectations.

I will post images a bit later and when you see them - you can judge for yourself. Projected everything is SHARP. Use this mainly for COLOR comparisons. The Italian print is 'warmer' overall and to me projected looked much more TECHNICOLOR like. That is my opinion.

GERMANY …………………. ITALY

Both are very good but to do a comparison based on a tiny photo is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS

You have no idea if the conditions when projecting were identical or even if the same projector was used for light output and of course nobody would dream of editing after the event to enhance or degrade a competitor.

By the way the Derann full length was pretty damn good.

Next cine fest event or film convention arrange for both copies to be projected to an audience.

[Douglas Meltzer]

Ruben,

I'm a bit confused so I could use some clarification about the original source that you provided to Andec. If I understand what you've written correctly, you have given Andec a 35mm print of which they made a 4K scan? I was assuming that you gave Andec the 4K file to make the negative.

[Philip Hamilton]

Hi Mike to clarify. The conditions were identical. Projected on my Sankyo. On a screen about 40” wide. Back to back. I took snaps from the Andec print. Then ran the Italian print and tried to take similar snaps. Not perfect for sure. It was never meant to be! I only have an iPhone. Again not perfect. I was mostly curious about the color saturation differences ONLY and that is what I attempted to give an idea of.

I’m just a collector. Not a lab technician.

[Mike Newell]

Hi Mike to clarify. The conditions were identical. Projected on my Sankyo. On a screen about 40” wide. Back to back. I took snaps from the Andec print. Then ran the Italian print and tried to take similar snaps. Not perfect for sure. It was never meant to be! I only have an iPhone. Again not perfect. I was mostly curious about the color saturation differences ONLY and that is what I attempted to give an idea if.

I’m just a collector. Not a lab technician.

Thanks for reply and clarification Philip

Mike

[Ruben Torrejon]

Ruben,

I'm a bit confused so I could use some clarification about the original source that you provided to Andec. If I understand what you've written correctly, you have given Andec a 35mm print of which they made a 4K scan? I was assuming that you gave Andec the 4K file to make the negative.

It depends on each title, it varies.. Usually we take a 35mm print, do a 5K scan here in Spain. If necessary (most of the times is needed) do some clean up of print faults and send a finished 4K Digital Intermediate to Andec to create a new 16mm master negative.

Hope this helps understand the process.

Best

Ruben Torrejon

[Douglas Meltzer]

I'm no longer confused! Thank you for the details.

[Phil Moors]

Fancy wanting a print for free! Unbelievable.

[Mike Newell]

Fancy wanting a print for free! Unbelievable.

Don’t we All Phil.

[Douglas Meltzer]

The many topics in this thread have run their courses and they are very tired, so I'm closing it.