Newbie to 8mm scanning / conversion

[Thys de Wet]

Hi all,
As the title suggests: I'm a newbie from Cape Town, South Africa on the road to do 8mm/S8 conversion to digital.

I have the following:
A Chinon D300 'daylight' projector (that has a screen like a TV) but one can also project normally to a projection screen.

Access to 2 videocams:
Panasonic AG-DVX100AE 3CCD Broadcast quality vidcam(with all the bells ń whistles, but still SD onto Mini-DV)
Panasonic NV-GS180E, also 3CCD Mini-DV SD, but a consumer vidcam.

Capture will be direct into laptop through a Elgato analog-to-USB dongle, using OBS studio set the capture with some upscaling.

I will have to LED-ify the projector, as the bulb went out some time ago. The projector can also 'play' at 18 or 24 fps. As I'm in PAL country, my inclination is to record/capture at 24fps, using the DVX100 set to 1/25th shutter speed. I will then slow down the footage to 18fps in KDEnLive.

At the moment I do not know what lens is in the projector. First order of business will be to install LED lighting in the projector, and then do a test run.

Any pointers on whether Iḿ on the right track with this will be appreciated.

[Jacek Kropinski]

Hi Thys, Good luck with your attempts!

I'm a newbie myself, but I have a great number of Super Eight films I want to scan at very good resolution. To do this commercially is prohibitively expensive.
I tried several several different methods and found this video extremely helpful: https://vimeo.com/20950590

The problem with projection is that the projectors are generally very rough on these 65-year-old films, which are now quite brittle.
And the heat of the lamp is an outright killer. One freeze or mistake and you lose a foot or two of film.
The LED lamp the guy suggests in the video above helped enormously and I did scan quite a few of them like that but it was awkward to move the camera every time I changed a reel, and then had to set up and align it again.

Now I am looking for a more sensitive method of advancing the film, so I am now looking at low-end scanners like the Wolverine to adapt somehow into a capstan drive.

All of these things might be difficult to source in SA, unfortunately. Good luck!

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

- That Panny DVX100 is miles better than GS180. ALL IN for that DVX!
And to get the definitely best result is to capture the video via its firewire connection as that will be pure digital capture. No (lossy) digital -> analog - > ditital conversion to ruin the quality. In order to get totally flickerless result it would be best to capture in progressive mode, with 1/25s shutter speed. But capturing in interlace 50i mode with 1/50s shutter should work also, provided that if you can somehow "fine tune" the projector's speed to 16.67 fps - that will perfect match with the camera's shutter speed.
BTW more about camera to be used later...


- Using low power LED lamp with high CRI would be the best option. But I'd found out that this low-power halogen lamp works just fine too. The trick is to find the one with lowest power rating, 10-20 watts is more than enough. Adding a white acrylic sheet as a diffuser would give you nice diffused light, and should take care of the heat issue as well.



After replacing the (burning hot) projection lamp with the lower power ones it's then possible to point the camera directly into the aperture. You can now capture the image straight from the film plane, totally bypassing the screen setup altogether. This will GREATLY improve the image quality beyond any off-the-screen setup.
The "secret ingredient" in this setup is to replace the original projector lens with something else, to act as a"loupe" for your camera. Usually any conventional 16mm projector lens (the 50mm f1.6 ones) works pretty good for this job - it works perfectly for me every single time.

And back to the camera topic...
How much does that DVX100 cost? If you still have some $150-200 left to spend it is very recommended to replace with newer HD camera. While great in its day this DVX is no comparision with today's HD camcorder even with the low end comsumerish ones. Any of today's camcorder with full manual control would be a better alternative then. The one used in the above pic is Canon HF G-20. A rather outdated camcorder by today's standard, but can easily blow any top of the line SD camcorders out, period.

[Jacek Kropinski]

Nantawat Kittiwarakul What is the model of that 'low-power halogen lamp' you refer to?

[Alwyn Adkins]

And to get the definitely best result is to capture the video via its firewire connection as that will be pure digital capture. No (lossy) digital -> analog - > ditital conversion to ruin the quality.

Depends how much restoration you are going to do. DV is lossy and low bitrate (~25Mb/sec) compared to an analogue lossless capture (~50Mb/sec) for restoration work such as high-quality deinterlacing and blends removal.

I definitely wouldn't say an analogue lossless workflow "ruins the quality".

For DV, a Firewire port on the PC is also required (unless the camcorder does DV over USB; some Panasonics do).

Another disadvantage of DV is you have less control over brightness and contrast; the only option you have is to adjust the aperture on the camcorder. With an analogue capture, you can use the digitiser's proc amp for fine adjustments.

There is also the issue of sound; an analogue capture flow allows you to capture the video and audio together. I acknowledge that you can capture the sound separately and join it up, but routing it all through the digitiser during capture makes life a little easier.

Many ways (and various quality levels) to skin a cat; I just thought I'd raise some issues for consideration.

Panasonic NV-GS180E, also 3CCD Mini-DV SD, but a consumer vidcam.

A tip: I use a GS-300 (haven't been able to find a suitable HD camcorder yet). The tighter the aperture, the softer the image is, so try to use a low-powered light and open the camera aperture right up; it will noticeably sharpen the image. I try to use around F4.

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

Nantawat Kittiwarakul What is the model of that 'low-power halogen lamp' you refer to?

THIS.😁



Bought it dirt cheap - a pack of three for $3. Should be more than enough to last me a lifetime.



Another alternative is this LED version which consumes only 3 watts of power, but more than bright enough for the job.

I believe that both lamps can be found in any hardware shop around the world including the one nearest to you.

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

Depends how much restoration you are going to do. DV is lossy and low bitrate (~25Mb/sec) compared to an analogue lossless capture (~50Mb/sec) for restoration work such as high-quality deinterlacing and blends removal.

I definitely wouldn't say an analogue lossless workflow "ruins the quality".

Analog video output MAYBE of higher quality IF the signal was tapped straight after signal processing stage & right before DV compression step.But unless the full schmetic diagram of such camera is available there is no way to confirm or deny that.

For DV, a Firewire port on the PC is also required (unless the camcorder does DV over USB; some Panasonics do).

Is that REALLY an issue?

A PCI-E firewire card is about $10-20 a piece and take about 5 minutes to install. And yes windows 10 on my pc doesn't have any issue with it.

BTW DV codec had been in use day in - day out in broadcast environment for at least a decade before HD took over, and almost nobody complained about that. (Yes there were higher end codec it its family such as DVC PRO, but that's another story.)

Another disadvantage of DV is you have less control over brightness and contrast; the only option you have is to adjust the aperture on the camcorder. With an analogue capture, you can use the digitiser's proc amp for fine adjustments.

That's what the control on the camera is for. Especially the DVX100 mentioned above that does have tons of image control in its setup menu. If that's not enough you always can do subsequent adjustment while editing.

There is also the issue of sound; an analogue capture flow allows you to capture the video and audio together. I acknowledge that you can capture the sound separately and join it up, but routing it all through the digitiser during capture makes life a little easier.

That's also what the camera's audio input (line/mic) is for. Unless you're doing something wierd (feeding camera's mic input with speaker level signal, for example) it'll work, and it'll be just that convenient.



After all this seems almost like you're still stuck in analog video era. All of my rants above is about my SD telecine setup that had already been decommissioned ages ago. For this day and age using a decent video - centric camera (my daily driver Panasonic GH5 for example) would solve all issue once, and for all...

[Alwyn Adkins]

Analog video output MAYBE of higher quality IF the signal was tapped straight after signal processing stage & right before DV compression step.But unless the full schmetic diagram of such camera is available there is no way to confirm or deny that.

Correct. I've done enough analogue and DV work to know that your claim "WILL ruin the quality" is not correct.

my daily driver Panasonic GH5 for example) would solve all issue once, and for all...

The thread wasn't taking about that camera: it was talking about the DVX-100, the GS300 and your Canon HF G-20.

As for the GH5, if someone has the $1000+ for one of those, fill your boots.

[Alwyn Adkins]

Jacek Kropinski , re projector speed, have a read of this topic:

https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/vbb/f...110#post105110

Depending on your projector motor type (and of course if you don't have variable speed control), you could use that gadget to slow it down to stop the flicker (I used it, with the GS-300 shutter speed on 1/50, to slow the speed down a bit to stop the flicker).

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

My biggest point is NOT to convince op to invest his $$$ to some old / obsolete technology - better to look forward, not backwards.

For example I bought my GH5 secondhand (in pretty rough shape but still fully functional) for just $500. The older model (GH3 or GH4) can be had for even lower price - I had recently seen a GH3 being sold for just $150 in my local Facebook Marketplace.

To clarify why NOT to invest in any SD gear , just see this unscientific (but pretty obvious) test.


Just dug out my decommissioned Panasonic GS400 camcorder (not DVX100 quality, but not too far behind), pointing it out to my front yard, ant tie it to my cheap USB video capture - more or less the same with what op already have. Here's the result.


That's passable if you have nothing to compare with.
But what about direct firewire capture? This is what would it look like...

MUCH better than analog video capture...of course.
Remark - ok I'm a bit biased. Since even after tons of tweaking & hair pulling I still could never get this USB capture device to look "right", so I just gave up long time ago and tuck it away. Hence I didn't bother do any tweaking when capturing the above sample, so the aspect ratio is a bit off...

But before convincing the op to spend $$$ for any top - of - the - line SD video capture device, how about spending for a better camera that does not break the bank?


I also still have my another HD(V) Canon camcorder lying around. Very obsolete HDV technology with "only" 1440x1080 resolution from over a decade ago, but still very capable.


No more explanation needed - just see it for yourself. I don't think there's any need to bring my GH5 to the mix, as this should be more than clear enough.

Although this Canon is in fact DOES NOT have full manual control, but there are workarounds to overcome that. Therefore it's still a valid choice for being used in telecine work.

Did a quick check at the moment - this camcorder can be had from $100 and beyond. But if you're patient some great deal will eventually show up.

So to summarize to the op.
- $0 investment - using whatever gears you already have at the moment, and be done with it.
- $30 investment - buying a firewire card to install into your pc to get SIGNIFICANT image quality upgrade.
- $100-150 investment - buying HDV/HD camcorder to get MASSIVE upgrade in image quality.
- $200 and beyond investment - the upgrade you get will be...astronomical, to say at least.
- $0 investment for any high end analog video capture device. Just don't do that - you'll regret it.

Oh btw - although your Chinon projector may appear to NOT to have variable speed adjustment, just either 18 or 24 fps. There is in fact potentiometer to fine - tune the speed INSIDE the machine. If my memory is correct it's hidden somewhere benath the front cover on its main board. If you have a set of screw driver (and knowing what to to) you can set it to be close to 16.67 fps - the sync speed to PAL video system.

[Alwyn Adkins]

direct firewire capture

Could explain in detail the workflow for this? For example, is this in real time or to tape and then transfer to computer afterward? What realtime capture program do you use?

And out of interest, what's your workflow for the GH5?

My HV20 unfortunately cannot be used for analogue or HDMI realtime capture because of the tape symbol on the screen. I assume the HV30 is the same.

Although this Canon is in fact DOES NOT have full manual control

Yes it does. You can set the shutter speed and exposure independently, and best of all it has a physical-control manual focus.

pointing it out to my front yard, ant tie it to my cheap USB video capture - more or less the same with what op already have.

If you haven't used an Elgato, you're not in a position to criticise it, especially given:

Since even after tons of tweaking & hair pulling I still could never get this USB capture device to look "right", so I just gave up long time ago and tuck it away.

Yes, there are cheap digitisers about. You get what you pay for.

[Jacek Kropinski]

THIS.😁

I believe that both lamps can be found in any hardware shop around the world including the one nearest to you.

Thank you so much, Nantawat Kittiwarakul - I originally wanted to use something similar but thought they wouldn't have enough luminance to get a decent aperture. I ended up using an LED but found it was too dim to shine through underexposed or dark areas of the film.
I'll try one of these = they are very inexpensive.

Much appreciated!

[Jacek Kropinski]

Jacek Kropinski , re projector speed, have a read of this topic:

https://8mmforum.film-tech.com/vbb/f...110#post105110

Depending on your projector motor type (and of course if you don't have variable speed control), you could use that gadget to slow it down to stop the flicker (I used it, with the GS-300 shutter speed on 1/50, to slow the speed down a bit to stop the flicker).

Thank you, Alwyn Adkins. However, my issue was with how rough mechanical projectors are on old film. I have several and found them all brutal and unforgiving, both mechanically and temperature-wise.

So I am looking for a gentle, capstan-driven, probably flat-bed solution with rock-solid registration and cold, bright illumination, all for an affordable price.
With so many great minds out here like all of you guys and Stan Jelavic , who have so much skill and experience, I don't understand why a machine like that is not on the market already.

I only want high-quality scans of 30-40 priceless Super8mm films without paying a couple of thousand dollars to do so, but I don't understand why we all have to put up with the crappy machines on the market like the Wolverine. There appears to be a great need out there for a solution.

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

Alwyn Adkins in case it's not clear enough - I will NOT invest any $ for any analog video capture gear anymore, period.
- My GH5 is more than enough for my super8/16/35mm (yes, I do 35mm cine films scanning too) frame-by-frame film scanning service at 4K output resolution. Even the most demanding customers don't have any issue with it.
- That Canon camcorder is also more than good enough for HD quality scanning work - for less demanding customers.
- I also have more miniDV/Digital8/HDV camcorders than I really need for tape capture work. Most can also be used as capture device for analog video tape (be it VHS/BETAMAX/HI8/whatever) digitizing work as well.
Since I already have all things covered, therefore no matter how great that Elgato is, I won't give it a dime. There's no place for it in my work. I'd rather consider buying a spare/backup GH5, than buying any analog video gear.

I'm more than willing to share info about my current GH5 workflow. But since this Thys de Wet thread had been too much hijacked I'll not have any further discussion with you here - better have your separate own thread then.

[Alwyn Adkins]

Nantawat Kittiwarakul I never suggested you buy anything.

Every question I asked of you is relevant to somebody starting out. Did you actually read any of what I asked? For example, your DV capture workflow? This is the workflow you are espousing but you're not going to tell us what it is?

The HV30 is an invalid option because of that tape symbol if it's the same display as the HV20.

You even told us how much your GH5 was. Why is it not relevant that you tell us your workflow for it? The first two posters, learning about it, may well decide to go that way. But they're now not going to find out because the thread's been "hijacked".

Jacek Kropinski My apologies Jacek, my voltage-controller comment was meant for Thys de Wet.