Seeking advice on transferring 8mm to video

[James Paul Dow]

I have an old Keystone 8mm projector and a Sony A7s camera that I use for video projects. Should I set up a screen and record in 23.97 frame rate, in 4k, or is there a better way to transfer some old home movies?

[Daniel Greenbank]

I have tried recording from the screen with a camera... even if you get the frame sync worked out to me its just not like what you you get with a good telecine. Our history preservation organization has one and did mine for a donation. They didnt ask for one but it was totally worth it, a win/win. Theres a place in Las Vegas that is supposedly good and I dont think its very expensive.

[Dino Everett]

James there are much better ways to transfer home movies, but they all cost money. I would say start with your video camera which is what we used to call "dirty transfer" and if it turns out to be something that you really want to get nice clean transfers of then you can get film scanners from a couple of hundred dollars for a Wolverine set up all the way to hundreds of thousands of dollars for a lasergraphics Director film scanner.

[Nantawat Kittiwarakul]

The best possible solution is to directly capture it via the lens (no screen involved) as still images. It is more or less the same as what I'm currently using (different camera, but very same principle).

https://youtu.be/yStZmqdWDLA?si=OGBsL-z7Rzsodveg

However this method is quite involving, and not without some learning curve. If it's a one-time project only for a certain amount of films, you may consider letting the professionals to get the job done instead. But if it's "just for fun" (or for the heck of it ) it will sure keep you busy for quita a long while then.

[Joerg Polzfusz]

E.g. Pro8mm offers scans from 720p up to 6.5k:
https://www.pro8mm.com/collections/s...8mm-to-digital

Keep in mind that most professional services offer a „flat/raw/basic scan“ and a more advanced scan (with image stabilization, color correction for faded films or over-/underexposed scenes, grain removal,…).

[James Paul Dow]

A Dirty Transfer is all the budget will allow on this projector. 😀 Thanks for all of the responses. It is much appreciated.

James

[Alwyn Adkins]

James, the one thing that will significantly improve the conversion process is using a 16mm projector lens and shooting directly at it with your camera. This provides a big-enough image to shoot with your camera. The image is upside down, so you'll need to flip it with software after capture. The lens replaces your current lens (assuming you can remove it). The lenses typically used are 2-3inch such as Wollensak's and Somco's. Search EBay for "Wollensak 16mm lens" and "Somco 16mm lens".

Whether they fit in your projector will be the issue. I have both lenses, and I think the 3in is better: it's longer (sticks out further). I have had to wrap my lenses in thick tape to make them fit snugly.

Then it is simply a case of positioning your camera close-in, pointing straight at the lens, framing and focussing it and shooting.

Flicker is an issue. If your projector has a three-bladed shutter, for 18fps film, use a shutter speed of 18x3, or 1/54 of a second. If you've only got 1/50 available, slowing down your projector a bit (ideally to 16.67) will remove the flicker. Depending on the type of your projector motor, you can use one of these to reduce the input voltage and so the projector speed, until there is no flicker. This forum post explains.

Post capture, the world is your oyster. The result, with no further editing after flipping, will be pretty good but if you are into AVISynth, powerful filters produce a great result by removing all the duplicated and blended frames and increasing the frame count. See what I have achieved here with a crummy old SD video camera.

[Alwyn Adkins]

Another lens option which Stan is keen on:

https://www.seeedstudio.com/8MP-50mm...ra-p-4624.html

It's fairly short and I had to remove most of the "outer" casing to make it fit but the optics are superb.

[Joerg Polzfusz]

When you have got a smartphone, then you can also try whether it gives better results. E.g. apps like FilmicPro will allow most smartphones to shoot 4K at 4:3 aspect ratio at 18 fps or exactly 24fps (instead of NTSC’s 23.something fps-rate). This can reduce the flicker.

When doing such cheap transfers, I also noticed that projecting a postcard sized image onto a piece of paper gives better results than projecting onto a proper pearl screen. (Less highlights, …) But that could also be my equipment.

[Alwyn Adkins]

apps like FilmicPro will allow most smartphones to shoot 4K at 4:3 aspect ratio at 18 fps or exactly 24fps (instead of NTSC’s 23.something fps-rate). This can reduce the flicker.

Interesting, Joerg. But wouldn't you need to synchronise the phone shutter with the film? If it was, say, half a frame off the film, I would think you'd get a steady stream of half-frames.

[Joerg Polzfusz]

Yes, that’s correct. But you will run into the same problem when using your Sony. It’s always a hit or miss. When transferring a 120m reel (=400ft), after a good start, I’m usually running into this problem after 60 or 70m. I then simply rewind 1-2m and start again. It’s always some work to combine these two takes in the video editing software later. But that’s how life works: you’ll either have to spend time or money to get things done.

[Joerg Polzfusz]

BTW: my projector has a manual film advance. It’s original purpose was to find a certain frame (for re-recording sound). But this also now allows me to start with „no shutter blade on the screen“.

[Alwyn Adkins]

But you will run into the same problem when using your Sony.

Not in my experience. Out of 50 camera frames, you always get plenty of good, clean, full-open images because the projector shutter is open for much longer (18 per second).

[Joerg Polzfusz]

This all depends on how good your projector will hold its frame rate. When the projector is set to 24fps while your camera is set to that 23.something, you already have got a mismatch that will result in problems later on. But unless your projector is quartz synced, it will in fact not run at 24fps, but will permanently fluctuate between 23fps and 25fps. And this will result in recording the shutter blades after a certain time.

[Joerg Polzfusz]

The three blades shutter rotates by 360° for each frame. So at 24fps, a rotation is done in 1/24 s. In this example, each blade is 1/6 of the 360°. So the red area that I want to record on video is shown for only 1/(6*24) s = 1/144 s = 0,006944444444444 s. This leaves little room for fluctuations even when recording with 1/500 s. That’s why many users prefer removing the whole shutter for video transfers. (But I will not do this on my projectors as I would never be able to put it back.)