SD vs HD Comparison

[Fred Hess]

I do appreciate your detailed responses. You always give me good answers and advice. It appears that our workflows are quite different, but now I have a new method to experiment with.

and to be frank, the difference between the SD 720x576 from the GS300 and the 1440x1080 from the HS9 is almost indistinguishable.

In my limited experience I am sometimes amazed that what should be (on paper at least) isn't always true. That's what makes the whole process so interesting (or did I mean frustrating?) to me. Always looking for better results, but sometimes you get great results with the simplest, low-tech methods.

I still can't get the Startech to work, but haven't messed with it too much yet. Hopefully I'll get it up and running. In the meantime I can keep capturing in OBS and importing into Resolve/Hybrid. It's not lossless but the results aren't bad. I'll have to make some more comparisons.

[Fred Hess]

Alwyn, I posted a question about capturing HDMI in VDub over on VideoHelp, which you replied to. I think it's relevant to this thread so I'll post here.

I tried using AmarecTV with the Startech Box again and am now getting some excellent results. They do work very nicely together and the video is so much better than using OBS. I'm still playing with finding the "best" results, but I'm liking this method!

Now my problem is that Davinci Resolve won't open the AVI files. Since you mentioned the Magix Movie Studio, I will download that and try it out. But first, 1)Will it open the AVI files from AmarecTV? and 2)After the editing, can you export to another lossless AVI file or will it only do MP4? I'll use Hybrid for the final MP4 and would like to give it a lossless file to work with.

I'm also looking at KDenLive. If you're familiar with that, would you recommend one over the other?

[Alwyn Adkins]

Resolve seems to be a problem child WRT AVIs.

Yes, Magix will export to all the AVIs you have installed on your system eg HUFF, LAGS, MagicYUV, UTVideo. It seems though that Resolve won't open any of those.

I believe Resolve will open FFV1. Since you're using Hybrid, my suggestion would be:

-Capture in whatever lossless AVI codec you desire.

-Bring the capture into Hybrid for deinterlacing (if you want).

-Export out of Hybrid as FFV1 for import into Resolve.

Resolve may be able to handle some of the other lossless outputs from Hybrid; I think ProRes is lossless and Resolve can handle that.

Can't help with KDenLive, although it does get favourable comments here and there and does look like it would be a good basic editor and exporter.

As far as MP4 output goes, I just use Magix. Whether the H264 encoder in Hybrid is better than others, to justify that extra edit>AVI step, I don't know.

If I didn't want to deinterlace, I'd just import my captures straight into Magix and do everything there. KDenLive may be able to do the same.

[Stan Jelavic]

I had this same issue exporting the avi files into Resolve. This solved the issue for me:
https://www.easefab.com/avi-tips/imp...i-resolve.html
Later on I just exported the VirtualDub video into a sequence of images then just import the images into Resolve.
It does take longer and you need a large external drive but that did not bother me much...

[Alwyn Adkins]

Fred, here's a ProRes export from VDub2 (encoded at ~200fps on my i7-13700/RTX-3060):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Xdj...ew?usp=sharing

Can Resolve open that?

[Alwyn Adkins]

It's early days, and I hate to say it, but it appears to me there's something majorly wrong with the way the HS9 outputs video, Composite or HDMI (for the purposes of capturing).

I am having all sorts of trouble with framing (HDMI and Composite won't fill the screen) and it is impossible to deinterlace the video properly. When I do a Composite capture with the Panny GS300 and my IOData GV-USB2 it frames well and the deinterlacing (both QTGMC and Magix) is perfect.

I haven't sussed the problem out totally and will keep testing.

[Fred Hess]

I tried a couple video converters and they both work, but at a cost. The 1st was Shutter Encoder converting to ProRes. The 2nd was Hybrid converting to ProRes. While DaVinci loaded them both nicely, the time to convert was costly (around 25 minutes per 3 minute clip). Since I have a job with 38 3" reels, it would take a chunk of time just for the conversion. Plus, in Resolve I have to change the speed to around 53%, 1 clip at a time, to get the clips to play normally (why is that?) and then make adjustments in the timeline. A huge hassle!

I made a comparison video of 1 reel using the AmarcTV/Hybrid conversion and 1 reel using an OBS capture (ProRes). The 1st clip was a bit sharper with a little better detail and color was very close. About what I expected. And I don't have to change the speed with the OBS capture in Resolve (again, why is that?). With the limited quality improvement and the amount of time involved, I'm back to the OBS method for this job. He'll never know the difference.

Alwyn, yes, Resolve opened your file. No problems. This is another method similar to using Hybrid that I could use.

I'm interested in learning more about your framing problem. How can I test that on my end? I didn't think I was having any issues with my captures but it could very well be that I'm not aware of what to look for.

I also tried importing the avi files into KDenLive and Magix. I got the KDenLive to load the files and was able to do some editing (flip, trim, crop, etc.) but it crashed when I tried to render the video. Tried a couple times with the same result. Gave up. Magix loaded the files but I had trouble with the editing (cropping especially) and I couldn't get any of the files to play smoothly. Playback was super choppy/jumpy so I gave up on that, too. At least for today. It takes a while to figure out new software and I was getting frustrated. I'm going to finish this job with OBS/Resolve, then come back to everything else.

[Alwyn Adkins]

Away from my 'puter at the moment, Fred, so will send some info re the framing later.

Re your options, one which I haven't got to try yet (but I will) is Stan's method of capturing onto the camera then editing the MP4 off it (SD card or HDD). I'm not a fan of editing MP4s but since you're doing that via OBS, it could be worth a shot to see if the result quality is better than via OBS. I assume Resolve will be able to open the camera's MP4s.

Re Magix, you can go to a draft-type mode (click that lightning icon, bottom right of the monitor) to help. It sounds like your system isn't the fastest if it's taking 25min to encode a 3 minute clip. My i5 laptop with no separate graphics card encodes HD MP4 at 80% of play speed; my i7/RTX3060 does it at ~800%.

[Fred Hess]

More comparisons show that the best results so far include capturing in AmarcTV (I'm not using the camera's SD card), then converting the avi file to ProRes using Hybrid. I can load the mov file into Resolve for editing and output to MP4 from there. For a real time capture it's pretty good if you get the camera settings right. I know everyone has different ways of doing things but this is working for me. Much better than capturing ProRes in OBS. I only wish I could figure out an easy way to fine tune the focus on the fly.

I also tried capturing with a Canon 4K camera. Lots more detail as you would expect, but I can't stop the banding no matter what speed the projector is running. Haven't played much with the camera settings yet so I don't know if that will make a difference. Any ideas?

Yeah, I thought my system was pretty fast. Computer is 12th gen I7, 16GB Ram. I didn't swap the video card. But some things (especially Hybrid) take a long time. I don't mind that much since quality seems to be better than anything else I've used.

[Alwyn Adkins]

I only wish I could figure out an easy way to fine tune the focus on the fly.

The Pi lens is a godsend. With the lens edging removed, it fits into the lens cavity and slides in and out to focus. Very easy and very accurate, esp when monitoring on VDub or AmarecTV display. Without it, using the Panny blip focus, esp on the HS9, is practically impossible to get right. See the attached.

Pi lens.

I can't stop the banding no matter what speed the projector is running. Haven't played much with the camera settings yet so I don't know if that will make a difference. Any ideas?

Set the camera to 50fps shutter speed and for a 3-bladed shutter on your projector, lower the projector speed to 16.67 (50/3; dunno why that works but it does ). You can accurately set the no-banding speed by using the VDub histogram: the right end pulsates if your speed isn't exactly matching the projector shutter opening and closing.

Ref your encoding speed, on my i7, Hybrid is giving me ~28fps with QTGMC Bob deinterlacing into ProRes Quality 4, so that's about half-play speed. Using VDub+AVISynth, I'm getting ~26fps.

[Brian Fretwell]

!6.67 times 3 is 50. That's why it works!

[Alwyn Adkins]

lower the projector speed to 16.67

I probably should have clarified that; that will be the speed the projector is running at when you achieve zero banding. I wasn't trying to imply you set on that via some gizmo.

[Fred Hess]

The Pi lens is a godsend.

I quite agree. That is the lens I am using.
On the Tobin System, in the lens barrel there is a spring behind the lens and an adjustment screw that engages the front edge of the lens. Turning the screw really lets you fine tune the focus without manually pushing the lens back and forth. Pretty cool setup. At some point, I may post some pics and see if anyone can come up with a similar setup on systems that use the Pi lens.

!6.67 times 3 is 50. That's why it works!

Spot on! Will make those adjustments on this camera and see what results I get.

You can accurately set the no-banding speed by using the VDub histogram

I can't get the Startech to work with VDub (don't currently use VDub2) so I can't test this. I should be able to see when the banding disappears when adjusting the speed.

Any more info about your framing issue?

[Alwyn Adkins]

I've given up on HD captures. I think the HS9 I bought has a wonky colour, and I just can't cope with the file sizes and processing speed. I haven't tried Topaz yet but have seen a sample of a cine enhancement and it's pretty good (attached; Topaz on the right).

This is what I have been able to achieve with an SD (720x576) workflow:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ZeNEUDrIITi0z7

[Stan Jelavic]

The video turned out very nice. Interpolation definitely makes the motion smooth. Good job.