70mm Film in 1930 ???!!!

[Melvin England]

I am currently reading a very interesting book called "The Chronicle of The Movies - A Year by Year History of Talking Pictures" with a foreword by Leonard Maltin. An excellent read, by the way.

On page 20 which is in the chapter covering 1930, there are a few comments that have surprised me.

Quote: " Both Fox and MGM wanted to be the first to present a film in 70mm. Fox calls its process "Fox Grandeur"; Metro is "Realife." Their two new films have reached the cinemas at the same time - but not many of them." Unquote. The films in question were both westerns "The Big Trail" and "Billy The Kid."

It goes on to say that most cinemas that had just invested in a new sound system were not prepared to then fork out more money to adapt to widescreen.

I always thought that 70mm was a concept first used in the 1950's, not the 1930's ?
I am hoping that the film historians amongst you all could throw some more light on this matter for me, please? It seems very strange to me that a format that appeared to have been created took 20 years to develop. I can understand the cinemas' reluctances in not adapting immediately due to the cost of conversion to sound, but it also appears to me that the movie industry may have shot itself in the foot by not introducing more 70mm earlier on, say, the late 30's/early 40's giving the cinemas a few years to recoup their expenses from the sound issue.

One other question. Do prints still exist in 70mm of these two films?

I very much look forward to all your comments.

[Rob Koeling]

Hi Melvin,

Have a browse on the website www.in70mm.com

On this page https://www.in70mm.com/library/process/early/index.htm they list other early attempts at creating a large format (starting in the late 19th century!)

This page: https://www.in70mm.com/newsletter/20...deur/index.htm gives more info on Grandeur.

There is plenty more!

- Rob

[Dominique De Bast]

Here is what Wikipedia says : "While The Big Trail, starring John Wayne, has been restored so that the 1930 widescreen process can be evaluated by modern viewers, no widescreen prints of Billy the Kid are known to currently exist and the movie can be viewed only in a standard-width version that was filmed simultaneously with the widescreen version. The widescreen format did not get a commercial foothold with movie-going audiences until The Robe two decades later." (Billy the Kid (1930 film) - Wikipedia)

[Osi Osgood]

Yes. The main problem was cost restraints, as theaters just couldn't afford switching to a brand new wide screen, as the studios were not about to pay the bill. The photographer for "The Big Trail" was a phenomenal photographer, as many of his compositions were like classical paintings. The film, in reevaluation, is a better picture than origi
nally received. Another 70mm film, "The Bat", while not as. good, does have some very ingenious camera work which wouldn't be seen for quite a few years later.

[Dave Groves]

The book 'All Shapes and Sizes' by Jim Slater and Grant Lobban goes into some detail on the early widescreen systems with illustrations from the films mentioned. A really excellent publication covering so many aspects of film and t.v. history. Done properly, the widescreen system in the 50's could be most impressive, but, when, like my local cinema, it had no proscenium arch and exit door either side, it didn't stand a chance. They simply installed a somewhat larger screen with masking that descended leaving a letterbox like picture at the bottom. Hardly impressive, and smaller than the normal ratio.

[Larry Arpin]

Here is a website that covers everything film:

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/index.htm

[Maurice Leakey]

I always understood that in the early fifties cinemas went to colour, 'scope, and other widescreen formats to temp moviegoers to return to cinemas to see presentations that black & white 4:3 television sets just couldn't give them.

Maurice

[Dominique De Bast]

Same for me, Maurice.

[Brian Fretwell]

I read about these systems in "The History of Movie Photography" by Brian Coe, who gave many talks at the old MOMI cinemas. It seems there was a 75mm Lumiere film for the 1900 Paris Exposition! The other 70mm, 65mm and 63.5 mm were mentioned.

The book states that "The wide film processes had no great success at this time. The cost of conversion .... coming on top of the recent expensive installation of sound equipment could not be borne by most cinemas."

[Melvin England]

Gentlemen - Thank you for your responses. I have just visited the websites you suggest and quickly scanned over the info. Naturally, a longer read is necessary at some point with all the information contained to be digested. I have book marked the 70mm site in my computer for easy access.

This wonderful hobby / subject never ceases to amaze me. There is always SOMETHING ELSE to learn and discover the more one delves into it.

Now...... back to the book......

[Osi Osgood]

If I may just share one last thing, concerning "The Big Trail", I have always had a fascination with the Old West in America, and when they filmed that story, there were still quite a few of the old "westward" wagons and such still in existence, and so, you are seeing a great deal of realism in that film which you wouldn't see for quite a long time afterwards.

[Mitchell Dvoskin]

If you are interested in the early years of motion picture development, may I recommend A Million And One Nights by Terry Ramsaye. The book was published in 1926 and the author hunted down and interviewed everyone involved in the creation of the motion picture business. The small limited run first editions were hand inscribe and hand signed by Thomas Edison, most surprising as he is not portrayed favorably in the book. The inscription is reproduced in later reprints. While those first editions go for big money, the paperback versions can be had for an affordable price on eBay.

Did you know that the first projected motion picture was in 1895 in New York City in 51mm. Presented by the Latham Company, it was almost 6 months before the Lumieres presented their projector in France. Latham invented and patented the projector upper/loops. He later sold the patents to Edison’s Motion Picture Patents Company.

[Dominique De Bast]

Sounds very interesting, Mitchell, but the shipping costs from the US to Belgium are, for the cheapest sellers, around €17,50 (almost the price of the book, € 20,59 for the cheapest one) :-(

[Steven J. Kirk]

My memory tells me that the Dempsey/Tunney heavyweight title fight of 1926 was shot in black and white 70mm film. I haven't found a good bit of evidence yet but perhaps others have this same bit of information in their film buff head.