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Author Topic: 16mm prints restoration
Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted October 29, 2009 07:09 PM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You absolutely have to see what this BRILLANT GENIOUS has invented. A genuine way to restaure 16mm prints, by adding, for example, missing parts or segments to an old copy.
Just a little hard, maybe, to understand all steps written in Italian. But all images will help you.

Believe me: this is a real talented collector.
I had to post immediately the video he uploaded on YouTube as soon as I've seen it first to show you his tecnique (of course he knows I did). Simply incredible.

Some Italian collectors have already contacted him to ask for missing opening credits or missing sequences. So incredible the way he works. So stunning the result. And, wow, he could even print brand new copies, considering he acquires the footage from DVDs. Well, I don't know about costs... [Roll Eyes]

You probably know I don't collect 16mm (and here in Italy a lot of 'us' already asked him if it is possible to do the same with 8mm prints. The answer was negative because of a lot of reasons you can imagine. Magnetic sound, just to make an example, or difficult in finding 8mm stock).

But LOOK AT THIS and you won't believe your eyes:

16mm prints restoration on YouTube

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006

- posted October 29, 2009 10:55 PM      Profile for Larry Arpin   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Arpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Very inventing. I'm sure he had to go through plenty of tests, but at least I understand what he did. He actually puts a soundtrack. I believe that is called a electro-print, or something like that. What does he charge? I would like to get the main titles to Jolson Story.

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Dino Everette
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1535
From: Long Beach, CA USA
Registered: Dec 2008

- posted October 30, 2009 01:35 AM      Profile for Dino Everette     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That was pretty great....Although he can't make 8mm prints he could make some pretty awesome 16mm negatives that could then be loaned to the folks that are currently making 8mm prints.....

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"You're too Far Out Miss Lawrence"

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Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: Milano, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

- posted October 30, 2009 01:37 AM      Profile for Fabrizio Mosca   Email Fabrizio Mosca   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Larry, he charges about 5 euro per minute, but the source must be in PAL system (i.e. 25 fps) and not NTSC, otherwise sync between source and film will be compromised.

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted October 30, 2009 02:54 AM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Larry, if the title exists also in PAL, it's quite sure he could work on the original version in English of the DVD.
That's of course just my opinion. Am I right, Fabrizio?
Good luck.

And yes, Dino. This could be another good idea. I should contact him to ask him about the cost of a brand new negative to be used, in case, for 8mm prints.

CIAO.

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006

- posted October 30, 2009 11:49 AM      Profile for Larry Arpin   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Arpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I just got an email from him. The main titles to JOLSON STORY is only music and no sync dialogue. I'm game just to have it. Maybe I will also give him a short piece with dialogue just to see.

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted October 30, 2009 12:22 PM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have a couple of ideas too...

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted October 30, 2009 12:40 PM      Profile for Steven Sigel   Email Steven Sigel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Larry -
Let us know how it works out - I've got all sorts of stuff that comes up from time to time that I need to have done.

Does he speak English?

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted October 30, 2009 06:25 PM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Dino, I will send you a mail right away! Ciao.

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003

- posted October 31, 2009 12:42 PM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Amazing!

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Isn't it great that we can all communicate about this great
hobby that we love!

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted October 31, 2009 01:26 PM      Profile for Steven Sigel   Email Steven Sigel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The fuuny thing is that this is OLD technology. It's called a kinescope or a Telerecorder.... :-) There's still at least one guy in the UK who has the capability.

It's great that someone has taken the time to set one up again...

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008

- posted October 31, 2009 02:18 PM      Profile for Martin Jones     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't speak or read Italian so I can only go by the visuals; I may have missed some of the salient points.
Steve has it right, "Kinescoping" in the States and "Telerecording" in the UK before magnetic video recording was invented. Difficult to do "on the fly" because it has to be done at the same speed as the TV material, 25 fps instead of 24 fps to avoid flicker, which creates a non standard projection speed.
However, it can also be done by using Animation techniques; the DVD is advanced one frame at a time and the camera takes single frames to match. Every 24 frames, the 25th is ignored. This results in a silent copy of the film running at normal sound speed , but 4% shorter than the original in running time. The sound track is lifted from the DVD and shortened by the same amount, using a computer to keep the pitch correct, and then re-married to the visuals either optically or magnetically. Material transferred this way can be inter-cut with original material; people move and talk slightly faster, but not obviously so, as the sound pitch is correct.
Martin

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Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted October 31, 2009 04:31 PM      Profile for Steven Sigel   Email Steven Sigel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The 25fps method was only used in the UK - it doesn't work in the US since video transmission is at 30fps.

Also - It wasn't necessarily because video recording didn't exist (it did as early as the 50s I believe), but it was MUCH cheaper than video recording. Many TV shows were videotaped and then telerecorded/kinescoped so that they could re-use the video tapes .

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Brad Miller
Administrator

Posts: 525
From: Dallas, TX, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted October 31, 2009 07:17 PM      Profile for Brad Miller   Author's Homepage   Email Brad Miller       Edit/Delete Post 
That's pretty darned cool. Its just ashamed he doesn't start with a blu-ray, which would be closer in quality to actual film...but great nonetheless!

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006

- posted October 31, 2009 07:29 PM      Profile for Larry Arpin   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Arpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Marco seems to understand and replies well in English. I just sent him a link to a 2.5 minute clip including the main titles and part of it that has a jump cut from my FTP site. Don't know if he will be able to download it but we will have to wait and see. If it is anything like Image Transform used to do years ago I will be thrilled. I used mpeg streamclip to convert the VTS file to a 25fps quicktime.

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted October 31, 2009 07:33 PM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Some people from here (Italy) already restored some of their 16mm prints thanks to him. And I was told Marco can really do magic! I wait for you to confirm it!

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted November 02, 2009 04:32 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't really get the whole idea perhaps because my Italian is so bad ( [Big Grin] )

But let me to sum up first, the idea is to get the 16mm taken from the Video projector, right?

1. How can the 16mm with 24 fps can get the 25fps without any flickers?

2. Isn't that if we get a picture from electronic stuff like TV there will be horizontal bar up and down?

3. Is he using negative or positive (reversal) stock?

4. How can he open the camera magazine while filming, isn't that the film will get burnt in second by outside light?

5. Lastly, what kind of stuff he is using to decode sound? (Laser pointer?)

Overall, the idea is absolutely amazing and EUR5/mintue is extremely cheap. So we can make 7 minute of Tom and Jerry (for example) for just EUR 35 on 16mm?

thanks,

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Winbert

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Larry Arpin
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
Registered: Dec 2006

- posted November 02, 2009 06:46 PM      Profile for Larry Arpin   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Arpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It looks as though he is inverting the picture to make a negative image to record directly to positive stock. Not sure how his system works as far as picture at 24 or 25. Possibly it has to do with the sound syncing with the film. He is only showing us how the actual recording is being done in the light. I never got into sound and what he is producing is a variable track which should be good enough. It obviously is done in complete darkness to expose the positive stock. I'm sure he's done plenty of tests and I didn't see any indication of a roll bar or flicker in his footage at the end of the Youtube clip.

He did mention to me me when he received my file that there were problems with some frames. He mentioned possibly 60 to 50 hertz, but I think it was from my conversion from 24fps to 25fps, but I told him to go ahead anyway. I would have to get a Pal DVD, extract the file, then send it. I just want to see the results anyway. Maybe in the future I can replace it.

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted November 02, 2009 06:49 PM      Profile for Steven Sigel   Email Steven Sigel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The way the UK Telerecorders worked was simply to run the film stock through at 25fps and voila - you have perfect sync between film frames and video frames... Of course when you project the prints at 24fps everything is just slightly slowed down, but it's not that noticeable.

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Gian Luca Mario Loncrini
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1948
From: Verona (Italy)
Registered: Jan 2009

- posted November 02, 2009 07:01 PM      Profile for Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Author's Homepage   Email Gian Luca Mario Loncrini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
3 years to fix this 'domestic' method. That's the time it took to complete all steps. I have talked to him a couple of days ago. A very nice guy. And very satisfied with his job after so longtime spent just trying and trying. [Wink]

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I remember when I was (super) 8 years old...

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Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: Milano, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

- posted November 03, 2009 10:20 AM      Profile for Fabrizio Mosca   Email Fabrizio Mosca   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Arriflex he uses is synchronized to 25fps, so he "records" at 25fps from dvd and then you project at 24 fps restoring the original speed.
Sound is recorded using a green laser driven by pc and he uses print polyester film (not negative or reverals). Of course, as he uses the Arri 120mt magazine, he may load as far as 150 mt or so inside it (remember that he uses polyester film and not acetate). Of course if you print a complete movie, you'll have many 14 minutes roll spliced together (unless he finds a 1000ft magazine for the camera...) .

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Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: Milano, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

- posted November 03, 2009 10:24 AM      Profile for Fabrizio Mosca   Email Fabrizio Mosca   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The Arriflex he uses is synchronized to 25fps, so he "records" at 25fps from dvd and then you project at 24 fps restoring the original speed.
Sound is recorded using a green laser driven by pc and he uses print polyester film (not negative or reverals). Of course, as he uses the Arri 120mt magazine, he may load as far as 150 mt or so inside it (remember that he uses polyester film and not acetate). Of course if you print a complete movie, you'll have many 14 minutes roll spliced together (unless he finds a 1000ft magazine for the camera...) .

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Steven Sigel
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 701
From: Massachusetts
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted November 03, 2009 10:28 AM      Profile for Steven Sigel   Email Steven Sigel   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Fabrizio makes a good point, if you take a PAL DVD and transfer it, you'll get the correct speed back when you run the film.

I have a lot of UK TV telerecordings, and those when run at 24fps are slowed down... But with a feature film, you wouldn't have the problem.

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Fabrizio Mosca
Master Film Handler

Posts: 346
From: Milano, Italy
Registered: Jan 2004

- posted November 03, 2009 10:40 AM      Profile for Fabrizio Mosca   Email Fabrizio Mosca   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
BTW, I'm one of the italian guys who had some footage printed from dvd. I also had a look at some BW footage and Blue Ray footage.

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Darren Payne
Film Handler

Posts: 46
From: Bournemouth
Registered: Mar 2009

- posted November 03, 2009 04:12 PM      Profile for Darren Payne   Email Darren Payne   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So can he copy from the higher resolution blu-ray format too? That would be great to see..

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