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Author
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Topic: Vinegar Smell vs. Film Smell
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Maurice Leakey
Film God
Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007
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posted November 24, 2013 02:45 PM
As Pete says, each type of film has its own distinctive smell. Take Agfa stock, for instance, it jumps straight at your nostrils, it's impossible to describe it, but once you've met it you can be sure of Agfa the second the spool comes out of its carton or can. Here I refer to 16mm stock, I can't say that Super 8 has the same smell.
Vinegar Syndrome is something else, completely unmistakable, probably more prevalent in the US than in Europe. Storage in warm and humid conditions will accelerate the unsought of V.S. Early diagnosis and cold, moderately dry storage conditions are the most effective defences.
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Maurice
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Gerald Santana
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1060
From: Cottage Grove OR
Registered: Dec 2010
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posted November 25, 2013 01:14 PM
My friend in film has a theory that VS is caused by film processing later, treatment. The film is the host, it's smell is determined by stock and the chemicals used in processing. VS is not one condition but, they are symptoms of degrees in film degradation and decomposition. All cases are individual and subjective. So, there will be a few different kinds of VS smell. Here are a few that I've noticed.
The Kodascope Smell: Very old acetate film (like Kodascopes), locked up in a can for dozens of years. When opened, the contents are not shrunken, no crystallization or very little. The odor is not like vinegar but, more like old processing chemicals gone sour. The films usually play fine with no signs of shrinking. Usually on old Kodak stock but can be detected on some on Agfa/Ansco and Ikon. I don't think these are even afflicted with "VS" and I bet they were always stinky like this, similar to AGFA Ozaphans.
BVS: The "Baby Vomit Smell" afflicts originals printed around 1940-1960's, usually only on Black and white prints like RKO and Universal. The odor is self explanatory, probably the worst of the VS smell. No crystallization. Prints are dry and heads are usually badly shrunken. The film smells like old pizza mixed with vomit so, I'll never thread this one up to view.
Chemical VS: The print looks good, no shrinking or very little shrink. Upon inspection the film is loose on the reel and bends very easily. The film plays like nothing is wrong with it. The film odor is more medicinal with a slight hint of vinegar. I've only noticed this one most on old black and white television shows. Very slight to no crystallization, which comes off upon cleaning.
Severe VS: As most know this one, as it advances, the film has a very powerful odor like distilled vinegar. Putting your nose near the film and inhaling sends a cold chill down your spine! The film is shrunken from the heads down. The film breakdown is geometric and every 4-6 inches there is a "corner" that makes the reel look like an octagon. Bad crystallization. The film plays with bad focus but the sound is usually still there.
Mold VS: Looks like mold growing on your film that's been in a case or can for a very short time. You don't remember the print having VS but, suddenly it's there. The first 100' ft is usually very badly decomposing, the emulsion is coming off like water damage. This is very rare but, I've seen it. Sometimes there is visible grey mold present.
Old VS: This is on prints that go back to the 30's which have been sealed in cans since the 50's. Agfa film stock smells rancid, there is bad crystallization on the film. Emulsion is still in tact but, it looks like the film was shot through a cracked window. If you play this film after cleaning it, it runs but focus is soft and grainy. Once projection is over, take a look at your rollers, they will now need to be cleaned or the remnants will scratch your film. There are two film stocks spliced together on the print below--one has Old VS, the other does not. How is this possible? Well, the kind of film stock is different.
These are some of the varieties of VS that I've identified, there are probably more. One thing that I've noticed is that VS is probably not contagious if the film is stored open reel. The other thing is that it can spread to other film stock but, only if enclosed in the same container. Let me explain...I received a 1600' reel of film that looked to be in order with about 10 different shorts on it. The prints were inside of a can spliced together, probably unseen for over 30 years.
As I cleaned the reel before projection, I noticed the smell suddenly coming from the film. I was upset, thinking maybe all of the films were afflicted but the first two or three where fine. Then, as I wound the reel, the third or fourth short was badly shrunken and had a very severe VS. I kept cleaning it to the end, where it was spliced onto the next print, a different acetate film (of a different stock) that was not afflicted with severe VS but, only very mild chemical VS.
The rest of the films were fine. Some were a little shrunken some were not. But, see below how they all wound into the supply reel flat, while the severe VS print in the short reel that I took out, had trouble winding into it's new small reel. It was badly shrunken with corners every four inches.
Did someone splice a VS print into other prints? Probably not, as the reel had been put together years ago. So my observation leads me to believe that VS could possibly spread but, it will defiantly destroy the film that it has afflicted if left unnoticed and untreated. Those that are quarantined early could have a second chance once it has off-gased for a few years.
[ November 26, 2013, 02:25 AM: Message edited by: Gerald Santana ]
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http://lostandoutofprintfilms.blogspot.com/
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Gerald Santana
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1060
From: Cottage Grove OR
Registered: Dec 2010
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posted November 25, 2013 08:08 PM
Thanks Adrian, Unfortunately mold VS is the hardest to combat since the emulsion will dissolve like water damage even if you try to clean it, it will wipe right off. There must be something you can treat the film with that will make the emulsion stable again but, I'm not sure yet what to do.
I noticed it first on a (gulp!) 16mm polyester print of a Ken Burns documentary I was checking that was treated with Photo Gaurd. There it was...the grey, moldy fuzz but, I thought it was water damage. Photo Guard is an old 3M film cleaner that was notorious for giving prints VS. It was inside a plastic case with a Photo Guard sticker. The film looked okay after the first 50' so, it was preserved but, the heads looked to be badly water damaged.
Then, I saw it again. I purchased a two reel feature on 16mm; Pygmalion (1938), printed on acetate stock. When I used to keep my films in cans and cases, I cleaned the first reel with Film Guard and left the other untreated. I looked at the first reel and then went back three to six months later to look at reel two when I saw grey fuzz coming out of the plastic case.
I didn't see it there when I first bought it and looked the heads. I inspected both reels but only previewed one, the one that I cleaned. But, months later, the emulsion was stripping off from reel two and onto a cloth. There was no stopping it, after 100 ft, I gave up and threw the film away. The first reel remained fine and later sold it as an odd reel. The print above with mold VS is an I Love Lucy episode and I didn't have the heart to throw it out. Maybe someone will find a remedy for it one day?
[ November 26, 2013, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Gerald Santana ]
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http://lostandoutofprintfilms.blogspot.com/
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Gerald Santana
Phenomenal Film Handler
Posts: 1060
From: Cottage Grove OR
Registered: Dec 2010
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posted November 26, 2013 12:36 PM
Hi Joe,
I think we are both in agreement with your reply to my post. I didn't mention IB Technicolor on purpose but, that is a good point and one to add under "The Kodascope Smell" filmstocks. You can call it the Technicolor smell or as Maurice already pointed out the Agfa smell. In any case, these are films that have their own odor and has nothing to do with VS, but the film does have shrinking as well, which is misleading.
And as far as Photo Guard goes, I also agree that it's impossible for us to know the truth unless we work in a laboratory. I was only relating a story based on an polyester, LPP, Ken Burns documentary called Brooklyn Bridge that I saw the sticker on. I've seen the sticker on other films that are fine, some that are VS. I've also opened Goldberg cans with VS prints and some are not. I can't blame the can for the VS, or can I? I was surprised however that I saw the damage on an mylar film, later recognized it on an acetate film.
I've also noticed a strong film smell coming from some LPP prints that have been in plastic cases for a long time. I don't think that it's VS at all, It's just how the film smells, like AGFA, Tech, and Kodachrome. Again, I think VS is completely subjective. Someone with a poor sense of smell could have a Chemical VS print, sell it someone with a better sense of smell and the new buyer could be upset or confused about the deal.
The baby vomit smell is unmistakable, much more powerful than the Kodascope smell. In fact, that's why I grouped them so close. Maybe the Kodascope smell leads to the baby vomit smell, then decomposition? The sign for that change to the subjective person inspecting is that the heads are now very badly shrunken but, only the first 25-50 ft. the rest plays fine.
And I also agree with Maurizio as well. Ever since the discovery of of the mold VS in one of my films, I got rid of all of the cans and cases and started to store them all open reel on racks. Those in cardboard boxes are mostly LPP and have molecular sieves plus, I rotate all of the films at least every three to six months. I can't risk losing any more if I can honor preventable maintenance.
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http://lostandoutofprintfilms.blogspot.com/
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