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Author Topic: My Telecine method
John Yapp
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 148
From: Telford England.
Registered: Dec 2011


 - posted February 12, 2015 09:42 AM      Profile for John Yapp   Email John Yapp   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi all,
In response to a couple of requests in a different topic, I have made a short video of my telecine method. I have started a new topic so as not to hijack that thread. Hope it helps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiOiuGFEzSU&feature=youtu.be

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3407
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted February 12, 2015 11:08 AM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Very nice video John. Thanks for putting it together. There's something to be said for simplicity. I do a similar setup with my 16 millimeter transfers. However I use a 20 watt halogen bulb and a macro lens on the camcorder. I haven't thought about using the actual lens and shooting off of it. I'll have to try that.

You said at 60 cycles you can adjust the speed on the projector to between 15 and 20 frames per second. How do you make the finer adjustment on the Eumig? I would be setting mine at 20.

Can you provide the specs (make/model/volts/wattage) on the LED light you are using? Like you I just use a piece of white paper for a diffuser. It seems to work just fine.

As far as the EasyCap, I have used one of these also for transferring VHS and other analog tapes to digital. Are you using the software that came with your EasyCap or are you using something else?

One last question. What camcorder are you using and what is the zoom capability?

Again, thanks for taking the time to give us a look at how you are doing your telecine. I always find it interesting to see how others are doing it and perhaps pick up a few new methods to try. Great job John.

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008


 - posted February 12, 2015 11:31 AM      Profile for Martin Jones   Email Martin Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Speed control on the 810?
Easy Janice..... a simple electronic speed controller in one of the motor leads.
Martin

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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John Yapp
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 148
From: Telford England.
Registered: Dec 2011


 - posted February 12, 2015 11:45 AM      Profile for John Yapp   Email John Yapp   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Janice, I can alter the speed on the eumig without any other equipment being necessary as it is a variable speed projector. The LED bulb is a simple 12v5w warm white MR11, which with a bit of persuading, will just about fit the Eumig's lampholder. I sometimes use a 20w or even 10w Halogen bulb. My camcorder is a panasonic DVD recorder with 30 x zoom lens, and the software I used for this demonstration was Corel Videostudio, although I have tried other capture software with similar success.

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3407
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted February 12, 2015 12:23 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have an 810D...didn't know the speed was adjustable. I'll have to open it up and see where that is done. Is is obvious where to make the adjustment...or will I need more info?

John, I thought the Eumig had an MR16 lamp socket?...AND is the 30x's zoom digital or optical?

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008


 - posted February 12, 2015 01:45 PM      Profile for Martin Jones   Email Martin Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Janice,
The speed adjustment John is referring to is the simple 18/24 lever on the front panel,which can be set or reset when the projector is stopped until the required speed is obtained.
However, the 810 is notorious for minor speed variations due to slippage, film loading etc.... unless it is a very good example.

The speed control I refer to is as simple ADDITIONAL circuit which can be added by insertion into one of the motor leads, controlled by a simple potentiometer. I've lost count of the number of times I've drawn attention to this method on this and other Forums.
My 810 has this added along with a speed indicator: I can control mine to better than 1/10 frame per second by hand, no matter what effect the film or drive slippage provides.

There is no other "speed control" provided in the mechanism of these machines.
Martin

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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John Yapp
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 148
From: Telford England.
Registered: Dec 2011


 - posted February 12, 2015 01:57 PM      Profile for John Yapp   Email John Yapp   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Janice, the eumig takes what i call a 6.35 A1/231 lamp but I've always found an MR11 bulb can be made to fit by teasing the pins out a little.
As Martin rightly says, (and it is he that taught me most of what i know) the Eumig 18-24 frames per second lever is adjustable between these two extremes rather than fixed to one or the other speeds. The 30x zoom is an optical. I have found that at least a 14 x zoom is necessary for transfers "off the gate".

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Martin Jones
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1269
From: Thetford , Norfolk,England
Registered: May 2008


 - posted February 12, 2015 02:17 PM      Profile for Martin Jones   Email Martin Jones   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John's optical arrangement is, as he says, based on mine from 2008... http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000936# 000000 , the main difference being that my B&H 75mm (John uses a 50mm) lens is attached to the camera by filter rings.
In my set-up shown I was doing frame by frame transfers, but as John rightly says, it can be as easily used in an "on the fly" machine.
The reason such good transfers can be easily obtained is that the number of optical components is a minimum between film and sensor.... just two, the 16mm projector lens and the camcorder lens.... no mirror, no condenser lens, no ground glass screen. And of course the completely closed optical path ensures that no light leakage affects the quality of the images.
The 75mm (50mm) projector lens is the equivalent of your (expensive?) Macro lens, both are simply what used to be known as "supplementary" or "close up" lenses. I used a 75mm to enable me to get the camera further from the gate and still be attached to the lens.... dictated by the projector construction. But it did mean I needed a longer zoom on the camera, which fortunately I had!

Martin

[ February 13, 2015, 03:00 AM: Message edited by: Martin Jones ]

--------------------
Retired TV Service Engineer
Ongoing interest in Telecine....

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3407
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted February 20, 2016 01:02 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John...I finally got around to trying your "non-method" [Smile] [Wink] [Razz] on my frame-by-frame Workprinter. It worked great!!!! I have been using a macro lens on my camcorder...it worked fine also, but I think in using the 50mm lens the images are sharper. This has become my permanent setup for this projector. Thank you so much for taking the time to make the video. I often believe we over-think some of this stuff...when a simple solution is right in front of us. [Smile]

Here's a transfer I just made using this setup.
https://youtu.be/-kQrgcCpnI8

 -

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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James Wilson
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 230
From: Norwich, UK
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted February 20, 2016 01:21 PM      Profile for James Wilson   Author's Homepage   Email James Wilson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nice janice

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James Wilson

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Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5436
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted February 20, 2016 06:46 PM      Profile for Winbert Hutahaean   Email Winbert Hutahaean   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Janice, I am not sure if this is my internet speed problem or your transfer, but I found the film run slower that the normal human moves. Can you explain pls.

--------------------
Winbert

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Barry Fritz
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1051
From: Burnsville, MN, USA
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted February 20, 2016 08:01 PM      Profile for Barry Fritz   Email Barry Fritz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John: Very nice job. Love the hi-tech lens adapter! I noted the film is upside down on the screen on the camera (as I would expect it to be), but right side up on the computer monitor. Was it your capture software that turned it right side up on the fly?

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Pasquale DAlessio
Film God

Posts: 3523
From: Bristol,RI, USA
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 - posted February 20, 2016 08:23 PM      Profile for Pasquale DAlessio   Email Pasquale DAlessio   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Jan

Your transfer looks excellent! Nice clarity and smooth running speed. You are the BOMB!!!

PatD [Wink]

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Julien Dorgere
Junior
Posts: 1
From: Ireland
Registered: Sep 2008


 - posted February 22, 2016 04:26 AM      Profile for Julien Dorgere   Email Julien Dorgere   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
What are the artifacts due on the youtube clip? It looks like it was incurred by some video effect (maybe sharpening or denoising)

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3201
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted February 22, 2016 07:14 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I did enjoy your video John. [Smile] and its great to see another Eumig being loved so much so it can be reverted back to standard use as well.

Likewise on one of my own projects I did go a bit over the top in fitting a variable DC voltage concealed inside to have a fuller control of the 50 pence LED soldered & mounted to a chunk of PCB and some white Perspex from an old 35mm light box.
One of the great things about the Eumigs is they do not take up a great amount of space, simple design and if looked after reliable. Keep the metal drive wheel clean and rubber discs with Isopropanol and they will maintain a solid drive speed.
If you have access to Vimeo you may like to see the final results I've achieved using my own Eumig.

[ February 22, 2016, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Lee Mannering ]

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Barry Fritz
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1051
From: Burnsville, MN, USA
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted February 22, 2016 01:59 PM      Profile for Barry Fritz   Email Barry Fritz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Very nice Jan. Since you have tried most every method possible for transfers, how much of an improvement over the "white paper on the wall" method is there with the direct capture method shown in your pic and used to capture that video?

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Phil Betts
Junior
Posts: 10
From: Plymouth, MN, USA
Registered: Feb 2016


 - posted February 23, 2016 02:26 PM      Profile for Phil Betts   Email Phil Betts   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm with Barry on this. I'm still searching for the right combo. I've tried camcorder, Nikon DSLR, and even my iPhone (not bad actually), all both with or without a telecine box. I just can't seem to nail it. Pretty discouraging, but I keep trying.

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I don't feel like an old man. I feel like a young man with something wrong.

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3407
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted February 23, 2016 10:09 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm finally getting around to answering a few of the question you've asked me.

@Winbert...Yes, some of the scenes are running slow, but intentionally. The camera my parents used had a slow motion feature which they loved to use. When that feature was used in the film I actually increased the fps (although it's still not at normal speed). In other cases I reduced the speed intentionally because I posted this on a "I grew up in San Francisco" Facebook group page and wanted people to have more time seeing the faces and the buildings in the background. Believe it or not it worked and someone did recognize somebody [Smile]

@Julian... Yes... YouTube's re-encoding sometimes exacerbates the artifacts from any post sharpening or denoising applied in the transfers. The artifacts are barely noticible in the original file. This is where trial and error comes into play to get the best image without over-doing enhancements. This footage probably needs a little more tweeking to further re-duce the artifacts.

@Barry...In discussing realtime captures...I personally don't use the wall method any more because it takes more time and space to set it up and you have to do it pretty much in the dark. As an alternative to the wall...I prefer using the ground glass and mirror system. Setup isn't quite as long doesn't require as much room and it doesn't have to be completely dark. I use this method to capture my 9.5mm films from my Pathe Baby. Capturing right off the film gate requires some projector/lamp modification(s)...a 16mm lens (like John Yapp uses) or a Macro lens attached to your camcorder or DSLR. Of course a variable speed projector is also necessary. A camera/camcorder with a minimum of a 10 times zoom and manual controls is a must to achieve good exposure...focus...white balance...and speed control. So you can see with all the variables envolved in either setup... there are several potential points of failure.

Under ideal conditions I don't see significant difference in the capture quality between the wall and the ground glass and mirror system. One is just easier to setup. However, in testing the realtime captures made directly shooting off the film gate... the images seem to have sharper focus and contrast. Capturing the film gate frame-by-frame is even better.

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3201
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted February 24, 2016 04:47 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Having pretty much completed my own Eumig just for fun project I've decided to go the distance and have a set of gates professionally opened up for full frame. Did have a go at this on an old S8 plate but will be much better done in skilled hands.
Anyhow have a look at some of my shot Agfa 200D from last year up on Vimeo. HD CS Final 8mm Agfa 200d transfer results

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John Yapp
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 148
From: Telford England.
Registered: Dec 2011


 - posted February 24, 2016 02:14 PM      Profile for John Yapp   Email John Yapp   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
great transfer Lee.
To answer Barry's query, My video shows an inverted image as this is how the film is captured onto the camcorder. The Easycap device transfers it to the PC, and it is a simple job to invert the desktop so one can monitor the transfer more easily. I then correct the image (which has to be inverted and flipped) with the editing software.

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Mathew James
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 727
From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Dec 2014


 - posted February 24, 2016 03:56 PM      Profile for Mathew James   Email Mathew James   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Lee,
That Eumig 807D looks and sounds amazing. I just watched the star wars trailer on your vimeo. Great stuff.
I want a Eumig now- he hee....

--------------------
--
Cheers,
Matt 📽

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Barry Fritz
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1051
From: Burnsville, MN, USA
Registered: Dec 2009


 - posted February 24, 2016 05:01 PM      Profile for Barry Fritz   Email Barry Fritz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the answers Jan and John. It was a desire to transfer my old family films ans VCR tapes to digital that got me into buying (and collecting) projectors in the first place. Over 100 projectors later, I've still not done any serious transferring! Just for giggles, I think I will try my Chinon DS 3000 by aiming camera at the built in screen. Prolly have a lot of loss of brightness and sharpness.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted February 24, 2016 05:37 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
anyone have a video to cine converter? Now that one we really would be interested In!!

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"C'mon Baggy..Get with the beat"

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3201
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted February 25, 2016 03:46 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Mathew and John its been a fun little project with the humble Eumig.

The Eumig model 810D is a better more powerful version over the 807D should anyone be thinking of looking for one. Its more nostalgia for me having had the 807D version as a boy and certainly a great buddy all these years.

[Smile]

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Lee Mannering
Film God

Posts: 3201
From: The Projection Box
Registered: Nov 2006


 - posted March 14, 2016 08:25 AM      Profile for Lee Mannering     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just a little update to my last as have completed the final stages of what was a (helps to keep the noodles working) bit of fun project. Topped off the job with a widened aperture, serviced the Eumig and finally fitted the blackout bazooka to lens thread. It made for a tidy job and a interesting project/construction prompting me to rethink my 3D cine camera attachment built some years ago.

Thanks John, Janice for a interesting thread and enjoyed a spot of Eumig based construction very much. [Smile] [Smile] We have come a long way from the old late 1979 Ferguson Videostar camera and Sony box.

Yay  -

[ March 16, 2016, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: Lee Mannering ]

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