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Author Topic: Beaulieu 708EL New Spool Spindles
Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted March 21, 2017 05:58 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have just received a pair of spool holders from Van Eck Video Services (Part Number PP-0012) for the Beaulieu 708 EL and I must say that I am very impressed with them.

At last, spools go on without a fight, or the worry that forcing them on may break off one or more of the "bendy" lugs.

They do not have ball bearings in them but there is a "brassy looking" inset. If this is kept regularly lubricated I don't suppose there will be any problems.

Many thanks to Linda and Edwin.

http://shop.van-eck.net/PP-0012.html

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Maurice

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Maurice Leakey
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 - posted March 23, 2017 05:40 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have just had my credit card statement from which I see that the two spindles cost me a total of £67.42 (GBP). This included postage to the UK and the credit card charge for Euro to GBP conversion.

When I see that Wittner charge 169 euros for one they are indeed a bargain.

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Mark Todd
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From: UK
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 - posted March 23, 2017 05:56 AM      Profile for Mark Todd   Email Mark Todd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
They look good Maurice.

Do the reels go on more or less the same, just better as newer.

Best Mark.

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Maurice Leakey
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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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 - posted March 23, 2017 06:54 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Mark

The original spindles were designed by Beaulieu to be reasonably tight to ensure that their 2200ft spools did not "wobble" as they rotated.

Unfortunately, many spools from different manufacturers would not go on due to being too tight. Owners were not aware of this and tried hard to push them onto the spindles thus wearing, and eventually breaking off one, or more of the poorly made "springy" clips which hold the spools on.

In earlier days, Wittner had replacement spindles (as used on the later xenon models) which had a turn-over clip. These were great replacements, but unfortunately Wittner's stocks have long gone.

The later introduction of the stereo model incorporated ball-bearings in the spindles to ensure even running, but the "springy" clips still remained the same.

Whilst the new spindles from Van Eck have a metal bore, they do not have any ball-bearings. However, as I said, provided these are lubricated now and again there seems to be no problems on this front.

The new spindles from Van Eck are made from what seems to be a stronger material and the "springy" clips have been redesigned and as the overall diameter of the spindles is slighter less than the originals they appear to be a much better replacement.

I have both the mono and the stereo models which are OK at the moment but I have the new spindles "in reserve".

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Maurice

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Mark Todd
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 - posted March 23, 2017 07:01 AM      Profile for Mark Todd   Email Mark Todd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Maurice, they sound good.

Great they keep adding to thier handy parts/stocks like this.

Best Mark.

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted May 08, 2017 05:29 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
To prolong your existing reel holders from Wittners Maurice, and also to gain better support with your larger reels fitted, I have found that by adding a few simple end caps to the ends of the reel holders, this offers by far greater support, to the springy clips that are only attached and supported at one end of the reel holders originally.
By fitting these, the nylon springy lugs are supported at both ends of the reel holders.

I don't fit these onto the reel holders though until a reel is fitted onto them as this may prematurely wear the retaining lugs on the nylon spring prongs.

This simply acts as an extra securing "locking" mechanism and forces the lugs to sit upright retaining the reels at all times.
It is almost impossible to remove a reel with these in place on a healthy reel holder.

The End Caps themselves are readily available online etc, only cost a few pence each and fit just right so they can easily be fitted and removed before and after screening.
The size that I have found fits best is 8mm End Caps.

There is no doubt by fitting these on occasions, the reel holders themselves should remain fully functional for a very long time and they should also stop them from ever flexing beyond the point they no longer serve to retain the reel fitted correctly.

The very same disciplines regarding reel types has to still be observed however and these won't allow reels that don't fit well on these machines to fair any better.

Stick with the usual line up of Posso, Elmo, Schneider, Gepe, Bonum etc to maintain the lugs on the spring clips without excessive wear to them.

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[ May 08, 2017, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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Maurice Leakey
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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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 - posted May 08, 2017 06:39 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thank you, Andrew.
Sounds a good idea.
Where do you get the caps? Are they for use with movie film or are they designed for some other use?

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted May 08, 2017 07:23 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
They are just multi purpose general plastic End Caps Maurice.
I think I bought some of each size from Ebay a while ago now but I have seen they can still be easily found and are used extensively in industry also.

They certainly help matters for locking the larger spools in place as the prongs begin to flex more and more as they age and have been used for many many years.

I use a much larger version of these also to protect my scope ring when the machine is put away in it's case.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted May 09, 2017 10:18 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Finally, another very often overlooked issue with these original and copied spindle hubs is that when they first arrive they have a moulded abutment face on them that is incorrect as a datum face.

Observe the following photographs..

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The above photograph is a stock photograph of how these appear from Wittners when you first receive them.

The arrows point to to moulded abutment lugs that form the datum face for the spool to sit flat against at the rear.
The problem with these abutment lugs, is they allow all correct sized spools to sit too far forward onto the spindles and as a result the fitted correct type spools do not click into position over the spring splines and their lugs correctly.

The reels never travel far back enough to make it successfully over the back of the retaining lugs. As a result, even with brand new reel holders, you can find the reel is tempted to force it's way off from the reel holder.

Also you will find that the alignment of the film running along the initial floating roller is not central. The film wants always to ride over the outer edge of the floating roller.

The solution is to do what had already been carried out to my own machine when I got it.
See photograph below...

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This was the front reel holder I removed from my own machine when I first got it.
The yellow short stubby arrow indicates to an area of wear on the reel holder through attempting to fit ill fitting spools of incorrect size, to the machine over a number of previous years.

The Red long thin arrow indicates the flat abutment face brought about by the previous owner "engineering" the holder correctly to allow the spools to sit right up to the rear face of the holder.

When I first received my new reel holder from Wittners, knowing this information above, I first filed off each of the Abutment Face Lugs to allow the spools fitted onto it, to sit always in the correct and centrally aligned position on the new reel holder.
This also enabled the reassuring "clunk" as the spool passes over the back of the retaining lugs to be heard on each occasion.

This is how my present front reel holder now appears.

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The red arrows in the photographs above show now that the abutment face is almost as far back on the reel holders as is possible given the restrictions to file a perfectly flat face onto this shaped piece.

By the time this has been carried out, the distance between the red arrowed face and the very end of the lugs on top of the spring splines, is the correct depth of a standard reel such as an Elmo 1200ft Jewel reel or a Posso 2200ft spool for example.

Finally to close, here we see the significant difference between the original Beaulieu reel holders as supplied by Wittners and those supplied by E.V.E.

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The uppermost photograph illustrates the original later Beaulieu designed reel holder incorporating two ball bearings per reel holder while the lower photograph illustrates the alternative brass bush fitted each, to act as a sleeve bearing for the ones currently supplied by Van Eck Video Services.

[ May 09, 2017, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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Steven J Kirk
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From: Southern England
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 - posted May 09, 2017 01:40 PM      Profile for Steven J Kirk   Email Steven J Kirk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's great work and very interesting information, Andrew. Genuine thanks on this from a fellow Beaulieu owner.

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VistaVision
Motion Picture High-Fidelity

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Andrew Woodcock
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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted May 09, 2017 02:00 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Anytime Steven and anything I ever get to find out about, I am always more than happy to share with everyone on our forums.

Thanks anyhow Steven, nice gesture pal. [Wink]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 25, 2017 11:52 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
As an update to this thread, I have this afternoon been speaking with a small batch engineering shop local to myself.

They have agreed to manufacture the metal parts contained in the uprated Studio / HTI reel holders that still include the much improved two ball bearing system.

I am looking to have the first pair manufactured on Tuesday of next week.
They ain't going to be cheap, but as we know, neither are the Nylon alternatives from Wittners!

I will update on here by the end of next week and report my findings from this initial batch.
If it proves a success, which i have no reason to believe it won't based on our talks and my own submitted data with this one, then I will be in a position hopefully to offer more of these to any other user who has the later dual bearing style nylon existing spindle hubs already.

In the end, after talks and submitted proposals, it was jointly decided to keep the design as original as anything further was making the over all cost uneconomically viable for myself and no doubt other potential customers.

I would be most grateful if an existing user of these type of spindle hubs could provide me with two dimensions, this would help me guarantee uniformity over the originals and while this can be reasonably accurately calculated, precise measurements would be extremely useful for us with this one please.

I will illustrate the two critical dimensions in picture form this evening thanks.
Any help would be most gratefully received.

I would urge anyone with two ball broken nylon spindle holders to keep hold of them. They will be required in addition to the new parts to successfully recreate the old improved original HTI ones. [Smile]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted May 26, 2017 03:36 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Here are the two photographs displaying the components and dimensions I am seeking hopefully if anyone could supply these dimensions please from their own machine?

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1/ Above ;- The first dimension required, is the distance between the centre retaining pin to the datum flange face in mm,
as illustrated by the black lines and black arrows in the photograph above.

2/ Above, The second critical dimension I am seeking please, is the width of the spool retaining clip as indicated in the same photograph above by the Red Arrows . Once again, a dimension in mm please for the width of this strip steel please.

Below..

Here is another photograph requesting two further dimensions from the originals in mm, if possible please.
1/ (between the RED ARROWS is the distance from the end of the datum flange face to the end of the reel holder hub please?

2/ The second dimension I am seeking from this photograph below is the dimensions of the depth of the milled slot to allow the the retaining clip to sit into position on the bub. Again in mm please if possible?

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Thank You in anticipation of any help and data received. [Smile] [Smile] [Wink]

[ May 26, 2017, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 26, 2017 09:21 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I am hoping maybe Alan Rik or Alan Gougar perhaps could help me out a little with this one with any luck?
Fingers and all else, very much crossed.

It goes into production on Tuesday so I need all drawings and other bits and bobs submitted by then
Any help most gratefully accepted please? [Wink]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
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 - posted May 27, 2017 04:08 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Anyone???

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Alan Rik
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 - posted May 27, 2017 04:24 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Andrew,
I just saw this. I would love to help but my Beaulieu is in Germany right now getting put back to factory spec!
Flavio here also has the HTI Beaulieu so a PM might help.

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 27, 2017 05:26 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Alan and thanks very much for the response buddy. I am sorry to hear you have had to send your machine off to Germany but no doubt it will be back with you like a brand new machine once you get it back! [Smile]

Hopefully then, Flavio may fill me in on the missing dimensions I am seeking here.
As said the project will go ahead regardless, but it would have been really nice to place some firm and authentic sizes on these to guarantee their replica status to the originals.

As it stands, they will still be very much fit for purpose no doubt, but may differ ever so slightly from the ones seen above in one plane or another without the information I seek.

[ May 27, 2017, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 27, 2017 10:28 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Some specific details I have managed to secure from measuring the existing nylon holders as well as checking against an Elmo 1200ft Jewel reel...

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The above detail determines the said " set depth" of the 6.5mm counterbored holed beyond the space occupied by the two back to back ball bearings mounted to this shaft.

[ May 27, 2017, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 27, 2017 06:43 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Crikey, it's like trying to get blood out of a stone! [Big Grin] [Wink]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 29, 2017 04:04 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
I will put a last gasp shout out for help with this one here today.

By the end of today all drawings and plans will have to be complete and ready to offer them up to the manufacturer of these.

If anyone does have one of these machines and they feel they could offer me the details requested above from the May 25th threads onwards,..it would be most helpful thank you. [Wink]

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5895
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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 - posted May 29, 2017 09:51 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Andrew
I do so wish that I could help you with the requirements for the various dimensions.
I have two Beaulieus but unfortunately neither has these later spool spindles.
Would Wittner Cinetec be any help? As they bought up everything Beaulieu perhaps scaled drawings may have been included.

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Maurice

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 29, 2017 10:07 AM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
They are shut until July unfortunately Maurice, but hey thanks Maurice. I really appreciate the gesture thank you.

I am beavering away on this even as we speak Maurice and the project will begin tomorrow morning regardless of any input I receive or not.

For those who this information may be both useful and interesting to them, I have taken plenty more essential details of these components throughout the day and as ever, I will be sharing anything I have learned from doing this exercise with everyone here and elsewhere as applicable. [Smile]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

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From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 29, 2017 12:50 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Phase One - Pre Work..

Modification of the existing dual ball bearing nylon reel holder ready for accepting the Stainless Steel insert.
Thank You to Rob Young some time ago now for supplying me with the original broken reel holder.

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Screws to be used to secure the new Stainless steel insert into the existing nylon Reel Holder (M2.5 x 6mm Sckt Hd Csk)

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Bearing Dimensions along with the critical width dimension of the dual bearings to establish the "Set Depth"

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Let the Turning and Milling begin Phase Two! [Wink]

[ May 29, 2017, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Woodcock ]

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 29, 2017 04:17 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Last few before handing this lot over..

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Andrew Woodcock
Film God

Posts: 7477
From: Manchester Uk
Registered: Aug 2012


 - posted May 29, 2017 04:20 PM      Profile for Andrew Woodcock         Edit/Delete Post 
Last few before handing this lot over..

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