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Author Topic: Open Gate Super 8 prints.
Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted July 09, 2019 03:33 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
This relates to Burton's review of his fabulous Fugitive print, but I thought I'd start it as a new topic.

Osi was questioning the picture ratio, as this print was produced open gate.

A lot of flat super 8 features were printed from open gate 35mm origins, so there is picture area top and bottom which really should be masked off.

Projector gates in cinemas would mask the 35mm image to 1.85:1, cropping off the top and bottom.

Some 35mm prints were printed hard masked, which meant that black bars were printed top and bottom of frame.

So, on an open gate super 8 print, you do have the risk of seeing mics in shot, etc. as this area of picture was not supposed to be seen on screen.

One simple fix is to mask your screen top and bottom with black velvet to give a 1.85:1 ratio. Then zoom the image out so that the top and bottom is projected onto the velvet. This absorbs much of the light and gives you a genuine 1.85:1 cinematic image, with no anomalies creeping into frame.

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Ricky Daniels
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: London & Kent UK
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 - posted July 09, 2019 04:17 AM      Profile for Ricky Daniels   Email Ricky Daniels   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Back in the days of 4:3 TV ‘Open gate’ regular and ‘super 35mm’ also lent themselves to direct telecine transfer without the need for additional pan/scan.

‘Shoot and protect’ (shoot for theatrical and protect for TV) was the theory however erroneous framing by the cinematographer occasionally results in visible ‘dolly tracks’ and mic booms, etc, as discussed.

Happy framing!
Best.
Rick

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted July 09, 2019 04:34 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Reminds me of the transition from 4:3 TV to 16:9.

For many years, when shooting 16:9, you had to have markers in the viewfinder for 14:9 and make sure you protected the edges for people still using 4:3 TVs set to the slightly masked 14:9

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John Armer
Expert Film Handler

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From: Lancaster, UK
Registered: Jan 2015


 - posted July 09, 2019 07:06 AM      Profile for John Armer   Email John Armer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Funnily enough I was thinking about this very thing myself. I've a copy of Predator which is full screen but should be masked I believe.

I was wondering if anyone had ever masked the gate of their Super 8 projector to achieve this? I think this is how it is done in the cinema.

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Mal Brake
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 - posted July 09, 2019 07:50 AM      Profile for Mal Brake   Email Mal Brake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Two Derann prints I once owned (The Devil Rides Out and Silence Of The Lambs) briefly had boom mics visible in a scene.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

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 - posted July 09, 2019 11:16 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Rob!

What a wonderful topic! I had forgotten about that term, "open gate". Glad to know it again!

Sometimes in films, there will be multiple ratios on one print. My optical super 8 print of "People That Time Forgot" has at least, three separate aspect ratios, one, the "open gate", two, letterboxed or masked shots, and i think there is at least one or two instances where it is "in between", 9I might be wrong about that third one.

I have heard that this is also common in films with lots of special effects shots. Different elements added together and then, a "hard mask' in order to have the whole bloody thing the same ratio! [Smile]

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Paul Adsett
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 - posted July 09, 2019 01:10 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Guess who is still using a 4:3 TV? [Big Grin] I kid you not.

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
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 - posted July 09, 2019 02:30 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, there’s still a lot to be praised about CRT quality.

Yep, the super 8 Predator is open gate. Not too many issues, but you do see the word VIDEO in some of the Predator POV shots, which is from the effects house that made the shots and should be masked off.

I think we’ve discussed super 8 gate masking before, but to honest I think it’s unrealistic.

Better to mask the screen for the appropriate feature.

Osi, Gremlins always springs to mind as having variable masking, as one part of the 35mm has hard 1.85:1 masking, but the rest is open gate. Not problem in the cinema, but the abridged super 8 print shows the hard masking for part of the second 600ft edit. Fortunately there are no boom mics and such on the open gate sections.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

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 - posted July 10, 2019 11:37 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Paul!!!

I too am using an old school 4.3 TV! Heck, it's a 40 some inch TV that still has an excellent image, so why get rid of it? 9I save the "good image" for my projections! [Smile] )

The funny thing is that, for years, i have had a "Sharp-vision" TV that projects a 200ft image, but i haven't used it in years! Hah!

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Paul Adsett
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 - posted July 10, 2019 07:45 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi, our TV is a 36ins Sony XBR with a CRT which is now 20 years old. The picture and sound is great, like new, in fact IMO CRT displays have much better contrast and depth than flat panel TV'S. We only watch the news shows anyway, the rest of the 300 channels we get from Directv are hardly ever used (about 150 of those channels are commercial promo's anyway1 [Frown] ). So I see no need to upgrade, we get the best movie shows in Orlando in our home cinema. The only down side is that the CRT beast weighs over 200 lbs!

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

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 - posted July 10, 2019 09:12 PM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Getting back on topic, in the Universal digest of The Nude Bomb the boom mic can be clearly seen in a couple of shots.

Doug

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Brian Fretwell
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 - posted July 11, 2019 02:06 PM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My Derann "Goldfinger" is what I always believed was always called "Open matte", some shots are masked some are not - no sign of extraneous film equipment though.

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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 - posted July 11, 2019 02:37 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Actually Brian, good point. Open gate refers more to shooting the movie, whereas open matte refers more to the theatrical print, so you are right, we really should refer to these super 8 prints as open matte.

After 16:9 TV became standard, it didn't matter so much, but back in the day when VHS 4:3 was the norm (and super 8) it does seem random that some films were indeed filmed open gate for 1.85:1 projection, but protected for a full frame video release, whereas other productions just seemed to assume that the 1.85:1 version was all that would never be seen and allowed all sorts to creep into the open framing, especially in the 80's when the video business was huge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_matte

[Smile]

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Chip Gelmini
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 - posted July 11, 2019 02:42 PM      Profile for Chip Gelmini   Email Chip Gelmini   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
And all this time I thought it meant a print saturated in filmguard...... [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

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Brian Fretwell
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 - posted July 11, 2019 03:47 PM      Profile for Brian Fretwell   Email Brian Fretwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is also some discussion on other forums about the intended ratio for Hammer films. As the 5 frame piece of 35mm film included in my copy of the Walton Films Story (issued by Larry Pierce of LGP) was from Twins of Evil I can see it was printed open matte and the cinema decided on the projected ratio. I assume it would have been whatever they were set up for. Strangely it is less faded than the Walton Super 8 extracts I have.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

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From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
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 - posted July 12, 2019 11:20 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
To get back on track ... (snicker snick)

Paul, ours is about 20 years old as well and the funny thing is that the volume control functions panel has actually un-attached itself and fallen back into the TV but fortunately, we can still use the remote to operate the TV. It's days are numbered, but I already have a flat screen TV set aside in the bedroom as soon as we are done using this! [Smile]

... and, i just LOVE finding all those little mics and such on the films.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted July 17, 2019 08:25 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have Derann’s print of the Hammer film The Reptile and it is open matte.

There are no real issues, but some soft variable masks on certain shots.

Also in some day for night shots, the skyline is visible at the very top of frame.

Comparing it to the Blu-ray version at 1.85:1, I’d say that the intention in cinemas would have been a 1.85:1 gate mask.

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