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Author Topic: Elmo 16-CL Sound Problem - FIXED
Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3350
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted July 25, 2012 09:48 AM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Welcome Akshay to the 16mm forum!

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3350
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted August 12, 2012 08:56 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I finally fixed the sound problem. First I reseated the worm gear assy... which was not pushed back far enough on the socket shaft causing the socket to be misaligned.

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The sound was still low and distorted. The problem was the sound head was not positioned properly.. To correct this I adjusted the "Buzz Track" which moved the sound head directly over the film sound strip. It sounds great now:)

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Steve Hartwell
Junior
Posts: 25
From: St Catharines, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jan 2014


 - posted December 01, 2017 09:27 PM      Profile for Steve Hartwell   Author's Homepage   Email Steve Hartwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Somebody put some kind of blue-green glue-cement on the buzz track adjusting nut and the two screws that hold the solar cell housing in place. I don't want to break something trying to turn the adjusting nut to break the glue-cement. Any thoughts what to do about the glue-cement ? picture added

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steve
www.homemovies.ca

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3350
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted December 01, 2017 10:28 PM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve it's common to use colored glue to seal screws and nuts so keep them in place. The glue is easily broken with a good turn of the nut or screw. The buzz track is meticulously calibrated and I've been told should not need adjusting. Someone had already misaligned mine so I had nothing to lose in trying to calibrate it myself. I did a pretty good job...but when I had this projector professionally serviced I also had them calibrate the sound. It's perfect now.

What seems to be the problem with your sound? I wouldn't suggest you adjust the buzz track until you've tried the other recommendations in this thread. Without a proper calibration reel...it's very difficult and you might make it worse.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1405
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted December 02, 2017 02:25 AM      Profile for Terry Sills   Email Terry Sills   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well done Janice - another victory to mark up! You are quite amazing and an inspiration to us all.
Something to watch for on the CL's is the rubber rollers. They are famously prone to degrading. They go soft and in severe cases turn to black sticky goo. But they are quite easily changed and should not be difficult to someone as proficient as yourself.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5680
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 02, 2017 05:21 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I should point out that alignment is done by using a test film which has an appropriate signal for the purpose.
A conventional sound film will, of course, work within reason, but the correct test film should really be used.

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Maurice

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Steve Hartwell
Junior
Posts: 25
From: St Catharines, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jan 2014


 - posted December 02, 2017 11:07 AM      Profile for Steve Hartwell   Author's Homepage   Email Steve Hartwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Janice, this thread began and stopped 5 years ago, so I feared I might not hear back. Silly me. Thanks.

You helped me immensely last year with my sankyo 1000 8mm, thanks again belatedly. (however, now it makes a racket most but not all the time when running film but not on re-wind, not sure why.)

So, it's a long story. Last year my rollers had turned to goo, I got a local company to make me new ones, but I chose the wrong "hardness", against their recommendation to go harder, 2 were too soft, 1 began losing it's outer surface months ago so I took it off and ran films fine without it, then last month I got to do about 20,000 feet of historically significant films, at least over half with sound, and another roller lost quite a bit of it's outer surface causing the film to increasingly squeak louder and louder till finally the film jammed, and I took it off too. I was able to continue running the last few films that way.

THEN, I decided to re-run 1 of the films for a sharper image, but, I'd loaded it wrong, and it chattered its way thru for a few seconds before I stopped it. I feared I'd destroyed the film but it was ok, so I loaded it properly, and ran the film.

BUT, there was no sound after that incident.

I tested it again, and a couple of other films, and the sound from those tests was badly crackling, the volume up and down, and threatening to disappear altogether, but it was there, when there was none after the 'incident' before the testing.

SO, cleaning with a cloth didn't help, and I thought maybe something with the sound retrieval got damaged on the bottom of the solar cell, and figured I'd try getting it out to get at the bottom.

That's when I found the glue.

That's when I found this thread looking for a solution to what to do about the glue.

And that's about the gist of the story.

steve

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steve
www.homemovies.ca

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Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3350
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011


 - posted December 02, 2017 11:38 AM      Profile for Janice Glesser   Email Janice Glesser   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
As Maurice detailed you should have a proper sound test film for calibration. However, I did not have a test film so I used a movie with Gregory Peck. I figured if I could get his voice to sound good...I'd be pretty close.

In my case I had to first adjust the buzz track to get the optical sound track positioned properly with the exciter lamp. Someone had moved the buzz track so far out of range that there was hardly any sound at all. Next I had to carefully adjust the sound lens. Turning, raising, and lowering the lens tweaks the sound clarity. This is where the sound test film is needed. Otherwise you just have to use your ears to get it as close as possible.

As far as new rollers...I bought mine from Larry Urbanski 5 years ago and they are made to Elmo specs and better than the original rollers.

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Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

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Steve Hartwell
Junior
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From: St Catharines, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jan 2014


 - posted December 02, 2017 01:04 PM      Profile for Steve Hartwell   Author's Homepage   Email Steve Hartwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm puzzled, doesn't seem like either the buzz track or sound lens should have been caused to get out of alignment, had sound before the 'incident' but everything is so solid, and glued, how could either part get misaligned from the 'incident'.

By sound lens I assume you mean what I call the solar cell, the round black thingy that sits in metal housing over the film, between the film and the exciter lamp.

So, at this stage, considering being told the sound apparatus adjustments will make it worse if not done correctly, and really should use a special calibrating film I can't get, I'm at total indecision as to what to try.

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steve
www.homemovies.ca

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5680
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 02, 2017 02:52 PM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If we are talking about the Elmo 16-CL it is quite possible that the optic adjustments are OK, it therefore may be the film itself is out of alignment. The 16-CL has many different movements operated in one go by the control knob. It sometimes gets itself out of alignment.

As regards actual optics focussing and alignment you may find the details contained below interesting.

http://16mmfilminfo.com/projmain3.html

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Maurice

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Steve Hartwell
Junior
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From: St Catharines, Ontario, Canada
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 - posted December 02, 2017 03:38 PM      Profile for Steve Hartwell   Author's Homepage   Email Steve Hartwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks for the link Maurice, and the suggestion, but I tried several films with similar results

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steve
www.homemovies.ca

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Steve Hartwell
Junior
Posts: 25
From: St Catharines, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jan 2014


 - posted December 02, 2017 10:32 PM      Profile for Steve Hartwell   Author's Homepage   Email Steve Hartwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I realized that because I removed the photoelectric cell I'm now forced to try making adjustments. Will post results

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steve
www.homemovies.ca

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5680
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted December 03, 2017 06:27 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve
I have again read your opening posting. It seems to me that the sound optics were perfectly OK as you said the adjustment screws were covered in "glue cement". Your problem came with the replacement rollers.
As I said, the Elmo 16-CL being a slot loader, performs a lot of movements when the main operating knob is turned. It includes various rollers to move into their correct place around the sound roller (and other positions.)
It's possible that you will not get back to square one unless you fit the correct rollers.
Once it loads correctly you can then check the optics.

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Maurice

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Richard C Patchett
Master Film Handler

Posts: 418
From: Flint Mi 48506
Registered: Dec 2007


 - posted December 03, 2017 08:46 AM      Profile for Richard C Patchett   Author's Homepage   Email Richard C Patchett   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greetings

At one time Elmo Made 2 different flange rollers

P 412105 Flange Brake- Roller Spring Type

And the Stranded
P 414947 Flange Break Roller

The Spring Type moves back and forth on the shaft

I only have run in this a few times when i replaced the rollers
Other then that your roller might be out of adjustment
RC

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RC’s Classic Collection
16 mm Parts & Service
Elmo, Eiki, Bell & Howell +
http://www.rcsclassic16mm.com/

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Steve Hartwell
Junior
Posts: 25
From: St Catharines, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jan 2014


 - posted December 03, 2017 08:35 PM      Profile for Steve Hartwell   Author's Homepage   Email Steve Hartwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maurice and Richard, I came to the same conclusion after doing a test last night of manually manipulating the film, like Janice did, to more or less where the film would be if I had the 2 removed rollers on instead of off, and my sound came back.

As I said in a previous post I had taken off two of the locally made rollers I got last year because they were losing their outer surfaces, but

I am very happy to see you two guys recommend getting OEM rollers also.

I just ordered the OEM 4 roller kit from Urbanski, and will report results when I get them.

Thanks everybody for all the help and patience.

steve

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steve
www.homemovies.ca

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Steve Hartwell
Junior
Posts: 25
From: St Catharines, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jan 2014


 - posted December 15, 2017 09:53 PM      Profile for Steve Hartwell   Author's Homepage   Email Steve Hartwell   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
So, my rollers kit from Urbanski arrived yesterday, I put them on tonite, and tried a 16mm sound film in it, and,

seems to have done the trick, fixed the problem, good as new.

yah !

thanks again all for your advice and patience. - steve

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steve
www.homemovies.ca

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