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» 8mm Forum   » 16mm Forum   » Slipping belt or cork cause of slow down on an Elf?

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Author Topic: Slipping belt or cork cause of slow down on an Elf?
Can Sanalan
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 122
From: London, United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2017


 - posted July 17, 2018 04:31 PM      Profile for Can Sanalan   Email Can Sanalan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi

Just wanted to ask what would be the most likely cause to slow down a film half way through the reel on an Elf projector?
Would it be a slipping belt or the cork on the take up arm?

I’ve run 400ft reels fine, no problem but when I watch an 800ft or 1600ft reel and it reaches around 500ft the film slows down to about two thirds of the normal speed I’d say.
The belts were replaced recently, bought them off eBay.
I haven’t touched the cork and it looked fine to me when I was cleaning the machine. But I’m wondering as the weight builds up on the takeup arm the belt might be slipping.

I just wondered if anyone else came across this problem and which cause was most likely.

If it’s the cork, where can I get a replacement for it?

Thank you guys,
Can

[ July 18, 2018, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: Can Sanalan ]

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 235
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017


 - posted July 17, 2018 09:29 PM      Profile for Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Email Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That massive speed drop means some abnormal load somewhere within the drive train. That means anything from the motor itself,the drive belt,etc...to the reel spindle.

For now try this...
At the very beginning - try blocking the reel rotation,does it suddenly slow down?
And after half the reel (when it starts to slow down) try manually turning the reel by hand,does that help speeding things up?

AFAIK you might need some lubricant on the cork surface in order to make it "slip" properly,otherwise it would stick&cause havoc like this.

--------------------
Just a lone collector from a faraway land...

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5680
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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 - posted July 18, 2018 05:54 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The cork liner (washer) should provide the necessary friction, however, if the cork is very dry it will not give sufficient friction and the film will wind too loosely.
The cork liner may need some lubrication, although it should not be applied too liberally.
This Forum has downloads of Elf (Eiki) service manuals. You may care to take a look.
http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/index.php?category=2#16mm Projectors

--------------------
Maurice

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Terry Sills
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1405
From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
Registered: Oct 2012


 - posted July 18, 2018 06:15 AM      Profile for Terry Sills   Email Terry Sills   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I can't see how the take-up arm not working correctly would affect the speed of film projection. That doesn't make sense. There must be some other reason.

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Rob Koeling
Master Film Handler

Posts: 396
From: Brighton, UK
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 18, 2018 06:40 AM      Profile for Rob Koeling   Email Rob Koeling   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Don't mean to highjack the threat, but my SSL sometimes slows down while rewinding. Could that possibly be caused by lack of lubrication on the cork? If so, what to use to lubricate it?

- Rob

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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 - posted July 18, 2018 08:35 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Have I read the posting correctly?
Does the whole projector mechanism slow down towards the end of a film, or is it only the take-up problem?

--------------------
Maurice

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Can Sanalan
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 122
From: London, United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2017


 - posted July 18, 2018 05:57 PM      Profile for Can Sanalan   Email Can Sanalan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Maybe I’ve got it wrong. If it was a take up arm issue the film being thread through would still be at normal speed and there would be film piling up on the floor at the rear as it’s not being taken up which, in my case isn’t happening.
I set up the projector again and ran a 1600ft film through,
Again after around 15mins of playing the film the projector slowed down again. It slows down to a point where the image starts to flutter ever so slightly.
What I did notice this time was the inching knob was slowing down, stopping, starting to turn a bit, stopping, turning etc.
This leads me to think it must be something between the motor and the camtank and it could be the belt between the two. It could be slipping.
The motor is running perfectly fine. If that is the case then why after 15 or so minutes does the projector slow down at that point and not near the start of the film? Hmm. Could it be the motor belt? Would be warming up and it slips I don’t know.:/

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 235
From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
Registered: Aug 2017


 - posted July 18, 2018 08:11 PM      Profile for Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Email Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the takeup is too loose it would cause film pileup on the floor mid-run.
But for this case the takeup is possibly TOO TIGHT,causing the (already loose) motor drive belt to slip and stall the whole projector.
That's why I suggest to try locking the takeup reel at the beginning to see if that gives the same effect. [Wink]

--------------------
Just a lone collector from a faraway land...

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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 - posted July 19, 2018 02:14 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think Nantawat is on the right track.
1) Tight take-up.
2) Loose drive belt.
What model Elf are we talking about?

--------------------
Maurice

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Can Sanalan
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 122
From: London, United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2017


 - posted July 19, 2018 06:56 AM      Profile for Can Sanalan   Email Can Sanalan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I see. Didn't occur to me that the take up could be tight. If the belt is tight how could I loosen it?
I'll also swap it with the feed arm belt and see if that does anything.

I'll have a look tonight and see what I can see when the covers are off.

It's an Elf ST/M.

I have another model but I prefer to use this one for quick viewings as the speaker is attached to the unit. Just more convenient for me.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5680
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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 - posted July 19, 2018 08:33 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There is a nitrile take-up belt within the arm but this is unlikely to be any problem. If it is the take-up it's probably that the felt washer is too dry.
The loose belt to which I refer is the drive belt from the motor.
I suggest you go to the site which I indicated above and you can download the service manual for the ST/M series Elf (Eiki) projector. You may gain some useful information on your projector's servicing.
This model is now quite old, perhaps it needs a good service and lubrication.

--------------------
Maurice

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Barry Fritz
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From: Burnsville, MN, USA
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 - posted July 19, 2018 08:51 PM      Profile for Barry Fritz   Email Barry Fritz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It is a motor and/or drive belt problem. Sprockets and claw move the film through the projector. The take up does not pull the film through, it simply reels in the film that has been moved through via the sprockets and claw.

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Terry Sills
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From: Weymouth,Dorset,England
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 - posted July 20, 2018 01:46 AM      Profile for Terry Sills   Email Terry Sills   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's true Barry, but I can see that if the take up is too tight ( i.e. The clutch system is not working as it should ) then as the take up reel gets heavier as the reel loads, then the take up will get tighter and consequently put more load on the motor. Maybe to the point where it causes the drive belt to slip. But I would have thought that the over tightness of the take up would be quite obvious and could be determined by simply putting a finger against the film as it passed onto the take up reel, or against the reel itself to slow it down. The take up should not normally be so tight that it could easily be slowed by doing this. Does that make sense?

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frank arnstein
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 532
From: Gold Coast. Australia
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 - posted July 20, 2018 07:50 AM      Profile for frank arnstein   Author's Homepage   Email frank arnstein   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The same thing happened to me this week while testing out an Eiki NT1 projector that I had bought on ebay.

After projecting very well for about half of a 400' reel, it began slowing down for no apparent reason and nothing I tried could fix it.

The cause turned out to be a faulty motor start capacitor. I peeled back the rubber boot and could see that it had started leaking wax and internal pressure had forced the sealing washer to lift allowing wax to leak out.

A modern electronic version was easy to find on ebay.
called a "Motor Start Run Capacitor 2.5uF 450VAC 50/60Hz"
It was an easy installation and fixed the issue straight away.

Here is the link to see or buy them. These are Chinese made.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CBB61-Appliance-Motor-Start-Run-Capacitor-2-5uF-450VAC-50-60Hz-2-2-pins-C427/272313476562?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Dogtor Frankarnstein
[Smile] [Wink]

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Barry Fritz
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From: Burnsville, MN, USA
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 - posted July 20, 2018 08:49 AM      Profile for Barry Fritz   Email Barry Fritz   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, it does Terry.

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

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From: Bristol. United Kingdom
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 - posted July 20, 2018 09:37 AM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The capacitor which Frank mentions can be obtained from China. At this low price there should be no import duty or VAT payable.
https://ww w.ebay.co.uk/itm/CBB61-Fan-Start-Motor-Running-Capacitor-450V-1-1-2-1-5-2-2-5-3-3-5UF-18-UF20UF/172821436043?hash=item283cf5d68b:m:moZzTlKn9dovbtdW8OzNFOA
Make sure value and pack size is selected - 2.5UF (450v).

--------------------
Maurice

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4772
From: Plymouth U.K
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 - posted July 20, 2018 03:52 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes my problem early in 2017 was the capacitor. Mine went with a loud bang, literally. Were watching a film and five minutes before the end the projector suddenly slowed down, then,(because i didn't switch it off immediately), there was a loud pop followed by a horrendous amount of smoke which started to fill the room. When everything settled this was the mess i found. It took ages to get rid of the stench in the room and clean out the mess.
http://8mmforum.film-tech.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001543

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Can Sanalan
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 122
From: London, United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2017


 - posted July 22, 2018 07:04 AM      Profile for Can Sanalan   Email Can Sanalan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When I bought the projector it was in need of major servicing so I took it on as a project to repair it and having it running as a back up projector.
With the help and advice from Tom Photiou I managed to get the projector running. Cleaned out all the old grease and relubed the parts that needed it. Same with the cam tank. Took it apart and gave it a thorough clean. New belts from eBay and cleaned the amps crackling switches.

I agree with Barry, it’s the motor toccam tank belt that’s slipping. I ran the projector with it’s cover off and at some points the belt would just stop turning but the motor was still spinning. I’ve made sure there’s no grease on the pulleys or the belt. I’m wondering if I buy another belt would I have the same issue or maybe a new belt will solve the problem.

Is there any way I can add traction to the current belt I have, considering it’s new or is there a brand of belt that you can recommend which is guaranteed to have better grip on the pulleys for this projector?

Thanks

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Can Sanalan
Expert Film Handler

Posts: 122
From: London, United Kingdom
Registered: Jul 2017


 - posted July 22, 2018 07:06 AM      Profile for Can Sanalan   Email Can Sanalan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
When I bought the projector it was in need of major servicing so I took it on as a project to repair it and having it running as a back up projector.
With the help and advice from Tom Photiou I managed to get the projector running. Cleaned out all the old grease and relubed the parts that needed it. Same with the cam tank. Took it apart and gave it a thorough clean. New belts from eBay and cleaned the amps crackling switches.

I agree with Barry, it’s the motor to cam tank belt that’s slipping. I ran the projector with it’s cover off and at some points the belt would just stop turning but the motor was still spinning. I’ve made sure there’s no grease on the pulleys or the belt. I’m wondering if I buy another belt would I have the same issue or maybe a new belt will solve the problem.

Is there any way I can add traction to the current belt I have, considering it’s new or is there a brand of belt that you can recommend which is guaranteed to have better grip on the pulleys for this projector?

I’ll also take a look at my motor just in case and see if I have the same issue with any leaks.
Thanks

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Maurice Leakey
Film God

Posts: 5680
From: Bristol. United Kingdom
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted July 22, 2018 12:09 PM      Profile for Maurice Leakey   Email Maurice Leakey   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It sounds if you have the wrong belt. Suggest you contact the seller for advice.
Only today I picked up a similar model from my service agent. He showed me a belt which he had replaced as it had no "give", it was impossible to stretch it.
Also, the nitrile belt inside the take-up arm had been replaced with a spring belt. [Embarrassed] Nice new belts now fitted and a thorough overhaul has made it "like new".
I suggest you get it looked at professionally.

--------------------
Maurice

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Richard C Patchett
Master Film Handler

Posts: 418
From: Flint Mi 48506
Registered: Dec 2007


 - posted July 22, 2018 01:59 PM      Profile for Richard C Patchett   Author's Homepage   Email Richard C Patchett   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greetings Gentlemen
All have good advice
But nobody mentioned the bearing that sits on the back arm that (the screw holds the assy in place )
Has it been repacked with grease ??
Also the shaft that goes back into the arm has that been greased?
The motor belt may be worn out and missing a tooth
The Take up belt is it the flat one or is it the round one? Elmo used 2 different ones
When the film stops taking up is the bottom gear still turning?
Hope this helps
RC

--------------------
RC’s Classic Collection
16 mm Parts & Service
Elmo, Eiki, Bell & Howell +
http://www.rcsclassic16mm.com/

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Nantawat Kittiwarakul
Expert Film Handler

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From: Rajburana, Bangkok, Thailand
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 - posted July 22, 2018 08:27 PM      Profile for Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Email Nantawat Kittiwarakul   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
"...and at some points the belt would just stop turning but the motor was still spinning..."

That's obviously the cause then. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Just a lone collector from a faraway land...

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Tom Photiou
Film God

Posts: 4772
From: Plymouth U.K
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 - posted July 23, 2018 04:08 PM      Profile for Tom Photiou   Email Tom Photiou   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
where can we still buy decent/genuine Eiki belts for these machines?
i dont trust the ebay sellers who seem to have complete sets but they are un branded.

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Richard C Patchett
Master Film Handler

Posts: 418
From: Flint Mi 48506
Registered: Dec 2007


 - posted July 23, 2018 05:07 PM      Profile for Richard C Patchett   Author's Homepage   Email Richard C Patchett   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Greetings

I am a Eiki parts distributor Here in the USA
Please visit my web site
RC

--------------------
RC’s Classic Collection
16 mm Parts & Service
Elmo, Eiki, Bell & Howell +
http://www.rcsclassic16mm.com/

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