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Author Topic: My Blu-Ray Experience
Michael De Angelis
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1261
From: USA
Registered: Jul 2003


 - posted July 14, 2009 11:00 AM      Profile for Michael De Angelis   Email Michael De Angelis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Please describe 8K scan restoration and
how does it apply with today's machines?

I have a 16mm Tech on Snow White
- and curious of the future release.

-suppose it can only be determined
with new machines to compare.

Where does it end?
Pinocchio was only restored just a few years ago.

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Stuart Fyvie
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Amersham
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 14, 2009 12:06 PM      Profile for Stuart Fyvie   Email Stuart Fyvie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Don't worry, this is the way it is scanned at. Think of it as scanning 35mm slides on your computer. The higher resolution, the more detail is retained. The image may eventually end up on blu-ray but the higher the source , the better the output.
Imagine a film was shot in 70mm, It would look a lot better than a film shot on 35mm. even by the time it ended up on 8mm.

Film is the ideal format because the resolution is dictated by the way you can resolve the film grains. It is not dictated by a video resolution, for example 525 0r 625 lines.

Hope this makes sense.

Stuart

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 14, 2009 02:13 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
Think of 8K scanning much like shooting a VistaVision negative or 65mm negative and printing down to 35mm. Greater image capture and better color depth to start will generally give you a better image even when reduced/compressed.

The next release of Wizard of Oz will go back to the original Technicolor negatives (again) but this time at high resolution. This will provide a better image than you could get with the orginal Technicolor film process since you can register the three images with greater precision than was possible with the mechanical methods and printing on the famous "belt" which imparted a "personality" to each and every print.

Nothing looks worse than a Tech print that has moving or out-of-register elements.

The higher resolution original will look better on HD if it's properly handled in authoring and compression.

John

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1621
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted July 21, 2009 06:15 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, I see that you are describing Blu-ray as being as good as professional cinema and "jaw-dropping".

Honestly, I mean no offence in this; I am interested in your opinion and appraisal of your own viewing experience; largely I agree with the "jaw-dropping" bit in terms of resolution.

But, whilst I am very happy with my current set-up, I am still bothered by "motion judder", whereby a video projector cannot produce the "perceived" smooth motion of a film projector (and I've been through a few video projectors).

I am raising this here because the Disney muti-plane pan is a great example of "motion judder" rearing it's ugly head in an otherwise perfect image (ironically more so at 1080p 24Hz).

Whereas good old super 8mm (16mm/35mm) sweeps it's way through pans with much more fluid motion to the eye (with it's 24 fps and introduced flicker).

I would really value your subjective opinion on this matter when comparing your video projector / Blu-ray set up compared to film projection.

As I say, I am not looking for any sort of argument here between formats; I am just interested in your own observations! [Smile]

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
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 - posted July 21, 2009 06:46 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Rob,
I can't honestly say that I have been unduly distracted by motion judder on Blu-ray, but I have only viewed a handful of films so far. I can't remember seeing any motion judder on South Pacific , but I did notice it on some scenes in Pinnochio and yes, I would agree that it was much more apparent than on super 8 film. I have read that some of the latest video projectors can do 'frame interpolation' where the on board computer looks at the last and next frame and fills in an extra interpolated frame to smooth out the panning motion.
The more objectionable Blu -ray problem for me right now, is the really terrible catalog of available Blu-Ray films, which seem to be mainly adolescent junk - certainly not worth buying. So few really great titles - where is ' Singin in the Rain' or ' Meet Me in St. Louis'.?
I have a feeling my Blu-Ray library is going to be pretty thin. [Frown]

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Christopher P Quinn
Expert Film Handler

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From: Bedfordshire
Registered: Sep 2008


 - posted July 24, 2009 06:21 PM      Profile for Christopher P Quinn   Email Christopher P Quinn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would like to see some Ealing classics released in Blu-ray, but it's never going to happen i fear. I hate motion judder more than peanut butter and that's saying a lot! [Wink]
Chris.

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
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 - posted July 24, 2009 06:40 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, the Ealing classics would be great Chris, but as you say, don't hold your breath. Right now, Blu-Ray is no threat at all to DVD in terms of classic film collecting. If anything, Blu-rays presence in stores around here seems to be decreasing, and you have to conclude that it will never get close to the market sales occupied by DVD. Except for a sprinkling of a few good titles, Blu-ray seems destined to just be a source for the latest movies showing at the theaters. I think this is a really bad marketing philosophy by the studios, because most serious film collectors will chose to just stay with DVD. Fortunately, there is some good news in terms of the Disney releases and some of the Fox musicals, but I doubt that we will ever see a whole lot of films from Hollywood's golden age getting to BD.
Don't get me wrong, I love the quality of blu-ray discs, but BD is a bit of a wasteland after the abundance of great film titles on DVD.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
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Mark Todd
Film God

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From: UK
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 - posted July 24, 2009 06:49 PM      Profile for Mark Todd   Email Mark Todd   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I use std dvd and a 5 year old LCD XGA 4/3 projector and have to say I can`t recall seeing any motion judder ever.
Is it a HD type thing ???
Best Mark.

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Mark Williams
Jedi Master Film Handler

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From: West Sussex
Registered: Mar 2007


 - posted July 25, 2009 04:17 AM      Profile for Mark Williams   Email Mark Williams   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Chris,

I believe the Ealing classics will be released eventually,THE DAMBUSTERS is even being released here shortly and that should look stunning if the dvd is anything to go by.

I have never experienced any motion judder either and I am using an HD setup now.

Cheers MW

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Stuart Fyvie
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Amersham
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 27, 2009 06:14 AM      Profile for Stuart Fyvie   Email Stuart Fyvie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
24 fps is the same on film as it is on projectors running at 24 P.
Some video projectors dont actually run at this speed, they re-interlace the image which can introduce the judder on pans.
A true 24P set up will look better than film because the re-fresh rate is much faster. A 35mm projector has a 2 bladed shutter
which will be 48 hz. A DLP runs much quicker. Also any image processing like noise reduction in the projector must be switched off. A lot of these modes are gimmicks and should not be used.
Most 8mm projectors have a three bladed shutter. They dont flicker as much but don't let out as much light. They can be modified but will make 18fps. films be unwatchable.

Stuart

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1621
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted July 27, 2009 10:27 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Interesting article / discussion here on frame interpolation;

http://www.projectorcentral.com/frame_interpolation.htm

A recent article in UK publication Home Cinema Choice also discusses a new projector from Optoma which uses their new frame interpolation; the author's opinion is that it suffers the same fate, making films look more like video and less natural.

Interesting, as there clearly is an issue with motion judder at 24Hz, else why bother trying to "fix" it. However, seems that unless your wallet is bottomless the new technology used to address it in domestic video projectors isn't quite right yet, certainly for movies.

Paul, I agree with you on classic titles not appearing fast enough. Whilst it is good to have all new releases on BD, there is a real shortage of back catalogue films. I wonder if distributors are wary of realeasing older films on BD as so much work is required to get them right and when they aren't right the critiscism can be so scathing that it leaves a release dead in the water. Especially in the present economic climate, maybe they just think it better to stick with the DVD release and not invest in work / time to produce a good BD version.

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Stuart Fyvie
Film Handler

Posts: 90
From: Amersham
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted July 27, 2009 11:49 AM      Profile for Stuart Fyvie   Email Stuart Fyvie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yuck. That frame interpolation looks horrible. You can't just invent frames that are not there 'on the fly' succesfully. To timestretch frames profesionaly takes large processing power and long render times. Why would you then take a pristine image and then stick it through a chip which costs a few pennies? It is like taking any great painting and then looking at it through a bowl of jelly. All these things like 100hz/ noise reduction/ smooth motion flicker free blah blah... are all Gimicks and should be avoided.
It is just a way to sell the same box to the public.

Keep it the way the film was intended and let any noise and clean up to the film maker.

As for classic blu-rays, I think some more are on threr way this year. Wizard of Oz. Forbiden Planet, GWTW. It is like 8mm in its heyday all over again!

Stuart

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Osi Osgood
Film God

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From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
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 - posted July 28, 2009 09:18 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Except I'm not messing with any motion judder ON MY SUPER 8 PROJECTOR!!!

HA HA HA!

Ehem ....

I just think it's so funny how modern technology is doing its best to "ape" film. I don't have to "ape" anything. I just put a reel on the projector and kick back!

The comment that "Its better than film" is a little presumptuous, especially since the source is film. You can't be better than the original source. Perfectly copy it, perhaps; but better? No.

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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 - posted July 30, 2009 06:03 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 


[ July 31, 2009, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Rob Young. ]

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Christopher P Quinn
Expert Film Handler

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From: Bedfordshire
Registered: Sep 2008


 - posted August 01, 2009 08:22 AM      Profile for Christopher P Quinn   Email Christopher P Quinn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just would like to say that i dropped the whole idea of trying to ape film when setting up. I found it a pointless and stressful exercise that just ended up with me feeling almost suicidal. [Mad] It is just not possible to get the same look, especially when watching classic B&W films. You can of course make adjustments that give a more sympathetic look, but it's never the same. So a compromise has to be made and I take solace that i simply would not be able to or afford to see these films at home on the big screen otherwise. The look of video projection is still light years better than what you would get on a large screen LCD/Plasma, and does give you the same feeling of being at a cinema at home, even without the whirling sound of a projector, which lets face it, you never hear at the cinema. [Smile]
Chris.

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1621
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted August 02, 2009 08:18 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Christopher, very good points indeed.

At the minute I am using a JVC D-ILA projector and have to say that it is the most "filmic" I have ever owned; no DLP rainbow and black levels that are so inky, with loads of deep shadow detail. I love it. I didn't think it possible until I saw it.

Motion judder does happen with 24Hz HD occasionally, but nothing's perfect (that goes for film too! And it happened with my DLP as well) which is why I was interested in other people's experience of it. Certainly it is more of an observation that an annoyance.

But you are right - it is so great that we can see films at home with the sort of quality now available which just wouldn't be affordable or practical otherwise. It's all about enjoying the movie in the end! [Smile]

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Christopher P Quinn
Expert Film Handler

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From: Bedfordshire
Registered: Sep 2008


 - posted August 02, 2009 07:54 PM      Profile for Christopher P Quinn   Email Christopher P Quinn   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I take it Rob that you have a dedicated projection room?
I can't get the black levels i want. [Frown] I did ask the other half if she fancied having a black carpet and walls in the living room, but she won't go for it. So i steer clear of Star Wars type films, well for now. [Wink]
Chris.

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Rob Young.
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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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 - posted August 04, 2009 04:32 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, Christopher, separate room (some pics of the set-ups from a couple of years ago on page 3 of the screening room thread).

But even with it blacked out some projectors I have owned just couldn't produce anything near black, just grey. And I'm talking up-to-date DLP projectors too! Even with the gamma settings adjusted to boost shadow detail (on both player and projector), I just couldn't get a convincing image with any real shadow detail.

The JVC D-ILA was a revelation. I dealt with a great hi-fi dealer who let me take one home for a week and try it before buying.

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Steven J Kirk
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 - posted August 04, 2009 01:49 PM      Profile for Steven J Kirk   Email Steven J Kirk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Slate grey carpet is still very homey and helps the image. I also have wine red wallpaper. It all gives the picture a bit more and no distracting reflections off walls. I use HD Panasonic VP and BD player. Exceptional. Okay the VP and player may cost the price of ten exceptional 16mm prints at £200 each but assuming you want more than 10 films in your collection it starts paying for itself. THE WIZARD OF OZ and NORTH BY NORTHWEST are out in the UK in Nov.

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Paul Adsett
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 - posted August 10, 2009 04:34 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Steve, that's great news about The Wizard of Oz and North by Northwest'. I have not seen them yet in any stores here in Orlando, but those are exactly the kind of films which may give Blu-ray sales a much needed boost, and I shall certainly purchase both of them.
Unfortunately, the presence of Blu-ray discs in stores here in Orlando continues to decline while DVD is thriving. Blockbuster have now cut back their BD display to a meagre 8 rows of shelves with a total of about 40 titles only, and Target have relegated their remaining BD's to a lonely corner section. Borders book store no longer stocks BD's except for a handful of the very latest releases. You have to get the impression that BD is really not doing very well, and I hate to say it, but my feeling now is that BD will never become truly mainstream like DVD, and will be relegated to a niche market like laserdiscs were. This is probably not suprising, since it seems most people cannot see any difference between DVD and Blu-ray on their TV's, unless they are using video projectors on screens above 100 inches (many BD's I have viewed on my VP don't seem to be any improvement over DVD'S!) So the masses are perfectly happy with DVD and have zero motivation to spend a couple of hundred dollars on a BD player and $35.00 a pop for BD movies, when the same movie can be got at half the price or less on DVD. I think things could have been different if Blu-ray had been launched with inexpensive players and a mouth watering catalogue of restored Classic movies, worthy of 1080p, instead of the forgettable titles that they started out with.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
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Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Graham Ritchie
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 - posted August 10, 2009 08:33 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
One thing I think is going to help is the new Panasonic Blu-ray recorder due to released here next month, which means if you own a HD camcorder its going to give a huge boost to those that take home movies. I still have not bought a player yet as they will no doubt come down in price as the recorders become the norm, very tempted to the go Blu-ray recorder way instead [Roll Eyes] and replace our present camcorder with a Panasonic HD version. I now own a few Blu-ray discs "How The West Was One" is the latest so will make a move hopefully soon. [Smile]

Graham.

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Steven J Kirk
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From: Southern England
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 - posted August 11, 2009 07:04 AM      Profile for Steven J Kirk   Email Steven J Kirk   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
www.amazon.co.uk list THE WIZARD OF OZ as a 2 disc edition for 2nd Nov. GONE WITH THE WIND is Nov 9th. NORTH BY NORTHWEST for Nov 16. This latter seems to be the first Hitchcock available as a BDV disc. Haven't checked amazon.com the USA site yet.

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Paul Adsett
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From: USA
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 - posted August 24, 2009 12:40 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just purchased Saturday Night Fever on Blu-Ray, and there is a note inside the case which says ' It is possible this Blu-Ray Disc was manufactured after your Blu-ray Disc player. To ensure the best possible viewing experience, your Blu-ray Disc player may need a firmware or software update.
Whats this all about/ Are BD users really expected to know how to do this, or is the BD market just aimed at computer nerds?
I see this as one more reason why BD will never become mainstream.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
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Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Rob Young.
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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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 - posted August 25, 2009 06:01 AM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Paul, I think there are two ways of looking at this.

Do you remember in the early days of DVD when certain titles were released with elaborate special features (the Matrix springs to mind which included a feature that would take you off into behind the scenes sections as the film was playing). Certain DVD players just refused to play these discs correctly and created quite a wave of bad feeling amongst early adopters of the format.

I remember My £400 Panasonic at the time would totally lock-up when ever I tried to play Pink Floyd's The Wall!!

Personally, I'm not fussed about the features really, but they prevented proper playback of the movie itself.

Point is, there was nothing you could do except buy a new player [Frown] . At least now, if and when we experience play back issues with Blu-ray, hopefully a firmware upgrade will fix it.

Out of my 20 or so Blu-ray discs I've experienced one so far (Wall-E) where the DTS soundtrack would just disapper half way through. Pioneer's advice was a firmware upgrade. If you visit the manufacturer's web site, you should find a list of recent upgrades available and what they do.

You can burn a CD of the upgrades yourself if you have the right software or, certainly in my case, Pioneer were very helpful and sent out a free CD with upgrades the next day. All you do is pop it in and let it do it's stuff for half an hour or so; so no need to be a computer geek!

But, a word of warning! You have to make VERY sure that the upgrade process isn't interupted (heaven forbid a power cut half way through it) or you can "brick" the player...in other words literally turn it into a useless brick!

If you have a profile 2.0 player, you should be able to connect it directly to the internet and do the upgrade that way. HD-DVD was the same, however, I had a Toshiba that needed upgrading (wouldn't run at 24fps) and plugged it into the internet as instructed by Toshiba. The upgrade all seemed to go well, but when I plugged it back into the projector it had yellow lines all over the image. I rang Toshiba and they were very helpful, calmly told me I had done nothing wrong but that the player was "bricked"...broken and that they would send me a new one!!!

I asked whether or not there was some way to restore it to it's factory settings and they told me no way...it was now useless [Confused]

Two days later a courier arrived and swapped it for a brand new one together with a CD to upgrade it!

So on the one hand, I think the ability to upgrade the firmware is really future proofing your machine, but on the other hand just be careful when you do it [Wink]

On a different note, I have just seen my first real "duffer" Blu-ray. I bought my better half Dirty Dancing and the picture is a mess of jaggy edges...one of the very things HD is supposed to be devoid of...it's rubbish and obviously a problem in the master source [Frown] .

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003


 - posted August 25, 2009 08:14 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks a lot for that advice Rob - if my player ever has a problem then I will certainly attempt a firmware upgrade. But the fact that if the upgrade goes wrong it literally wipes out the player is very scary indeed! [Eek!] You have to conclude that this kind of thing is going to turn off a lot of people from BD.
All of which makes me really value the simplicity and longevity of film systems.

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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