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Author Topic: The Hobbit and cold digital ...
Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted November 30, 2012 12:46 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well, I certainly look forward to seeing the Hobbit and fortunately, we have a theater that still runs 35MM, so we'll no doubt get a 35MM print of it. I'm so thankful, and I better enjoy it while I can because, no doubt, that will change, sooner or later.

It seems odd to think that we'd come to this point in entertainment, that everything would become digital. Now, I know that there are those who look forward to the 48 fps digital version of "The Hobbit", but if I wanted to watch a videotape of the hobbit, no matter how fancy, I'd just sit in front of my TV.

It's already been stated that those who saw the advance screening stated that the 48 fps display made the costumes and special effects look a little fake and the sets looked like, well, sets (which should never happen in a theatrical presentation), but i think that the Jacksom's of the cinema seem to have forgotten that there is a real need for celluloid film, a need that is essential to the overall presentation of a film like the Hobbit, and it's something that I think couldn't have been valued until it was lost, until there was an ability to compare 48fps to 24fps.

I should hope that the Jackson's of the world will still contunie to shoot with actual film or, at least, film with digital and "downgrade" (which it really isn't) to 35MM prints of thier films.

I wouldn't be surprised if, in the long run, they'll step back and acknowledge, "Ya know, It really does look better on film!"

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"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Hugh Thompson Scott
Film God

Posts: 3063
From: Gt. Clifton,Cumbria,England
Registered: Jan 2012


 - posted November 30, 2012 01:42 PM      Profile for Hugh Thompson Scott   Email Hugh Thompson Scott       Edit/Delete Post 
Somehow Osi I don't think that they would ever admit it.Instead
we'll get the response in interviews that film is good but the
modern audience won't accept the odd artifacts that film has,
the modern audience is much more sophisticated,that is if they
can ever raise their heads from their mobile phones to actually
watch anything.If I come across as bitter,it's because I am,the
so called modern audience embraced video with both hands and
effectively dealt our hobby a death blow, so much for their
knowledge and appreciation of picture quality.Joe public will
sit there and be spoon fed whatever the big boys feed them
because a lot of them don't know any better, if they can sit
and watch films etc on a minute screen on their telephones,
it just flies in the face.

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1633
From: Cheshire, U.K.
Registered: Dec 2003


 - posted November 30, 2012 01:50 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hi Osi.

I know you and I often don't agree on certain things! [Smile]

Regarding film vs. digital, this is an argument, nay, discussion, that will rage and rage, I'm sure.

From my perspective, I still prefer vinyl records to any other sound reproduction media...honestly, nothing else has surpassed that technology.

But, I admit, it can crackle and pop.

Unless you have a really nice turntable; then it tends not to. Just play beautiful music.

So, let us say that I am through and through an "analogue" fan.

I love film dearly, but the fact is that these days it is no longer film vs. "video".

Digital technology is vast and varied.

Like any other technology, it can be presented very badly and, given the chance, very nicely.

Much like film.

Present film poorly and it is just what every aficiando of digital wants you to experience...scratched, unsteady images with awful sound...present it well, as we do here, and it can be a joy.

Digital...present it poorly, etc...etc...

It isn't all bad.

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

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From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007


 - posted November 30, 2012 02:11 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
...but the
modern audience won't accept the odd artifacts that film has,
the modern audience is much more sophisticated...

The modern audience don't really give a toss what medium is used. Film or digital - they don't know the difference.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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From: Long Island, NY, USA
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 - posted November 30, 2012 02:48 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think most people don't actually notice the stuff on screen we obsess on.

I've seen some absolutely awful stuff: lines, specks, bad focus...basically you name it. Then after the show I ask the people I'm with: "Did you see that?"

They reply "See what?"

I guess when you have a hobby where something gone wrong means you can ruin an expensive film makes you a little sensitive to what happens on screen.

I agree about the medium not mattering. It's like my wife with what makes her car go: pistons, rods, crank...a squirrel on a wheel...a billion rubber bands wound up with a crank....whatEVER!

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

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From: Essex, UK
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 - posted November 30, 2012 03:05 PM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The vast majority of the general public have assumed their movies are on "some kinda DVD" for years now.

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Steve Klare
Film Guy

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 - posted November 30, 2012 03:55 PM      Profile for Steve Klare   Email Steve Klare   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If they even think about it!

When I was a little kid I got in a great deal of trouble because I wondered how things worked and I knew where Dad kept his screwdrivers.

-most people never did.

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All I ask is a wide screen and a projector to light her by...

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Ricky Daniels
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 587
From: London & Kent UK
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 - posted November 30, 2012 04:32 PM      Profile for Ricky Daniels   Email Ricky Daniels   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Got an invite to a Dolby screening in the West End later in December... in Digital 3D and DOLBY ATMOS... can't ait to hear it let alone see it!

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Larry Arpin
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 - posted November 30, 2012 04:44 PM      Profile for Larry Arpin   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Arpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi, Ricky-Let us know what you think of the film after you sit thru the 2 hours and 40 minutes, yes that's the final running time, of what I feel is a 3D digital remake of LOTR. Just can't see sitting thru something like for that long. I wish Jackson could have made HALO instead. Or something totally different.

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Rob Young.
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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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 - posted November 30, 2012 04:44 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The other night I showed "Moulin Rouge" in my home cinema with a huge audience of me + 3.

Blu-Ray..state of the art..

Now everyone really enjoyed it, but afterwards, the discussion wasn't quite what I expected... I thought everyone would say, "wasn't it great on the big screen"., etc. etc.

No...

"This is great, I could bring 'round my DVD of this and that...blah, blah..."

Like it was just a big TV. And you can bring around any old DVD, etc.

I give up.

I think people do appreciate quality when they experience it. I also think they don't quite appreciate what it is when it is on offer.

But they aren't to blame. Instead, they wonder why a certain film doesn't seem quite the same when they see it on the TV, an aeroplane, a moblile phone...

Keep up the good work guys, be it film or digital.

We like to present, er, "films" the best they can be.

Personally, I think the experience of a good, quality, BIG screen presentation, with good sound, can make make the difference between an average movie and a great one.

Even I gasped the other night, and I've see the thing a hundred times!

Thing is, I've worked hard at presenting the best film and digital over the years, and everyone really enjoyed the other night, because, I think, the presentation was the best I could get it. They really did gasp and, yes, even cry, because it was so much better than shoving it on a televison; even if they didn't realise it.

We guys are the future of presentation! Be it film or digital!

EDIT: Ricky; ATMOS!!! Cool! Let us know...

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Patrick Walsh
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From: Christchurch, New Zealand
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 - posted November 30, 2012 04:50 PM      Profile for Patrick Walsh   Email Patrick Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Im screening it here on 35mm from the 12th, I have noticed that alot of the discussions on the high frame rate talk about it as being "hi def" in the common folks words, one reporter said that it would be like quote"Watching your amazing digital tv set from home but being several hundred times bigger"

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"Raise The Titanic!", It would of been cheaper to lower the Atlantic!

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Thomas Murin, Jr.
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From: Lanoka Harbor, NJ, USA
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 - posted November 30, 2012 05:35 PM      Profile for Thomas Murin, Jr.   Author's Homepage   Email Thomas Murin, Jr.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi, Peter Jackson was present at the screening of the innital footage of the film and stated that the footage was "raw, direct from the digital files". That footage has no color grading, FX , ANYTHING.

Here's what the final, finished footage looks like:

TRAILER 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEOM13UyZ0A

TRAILER 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1SJ7yaa7cI

The 48fps footage will likely look nothing like the preview footage and more like the above.

Also, this is hardly a remake of LOTR as it takes place long before the events in that trilogy.

--------------------
My crummy Deviant Art account. Read my poetic tribute to the internet comic strip Ozy & Millie and view my crappy attempts at art.

http://cougartiger.deviantart.com/

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Graham Ritchie
Film God

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From: New Zealand
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 - posted November 30, 2012 05:55 PM      Profile for Graham Ritchie   Email Graham Ritchie   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It will be interesting to hear what folk think about it in 3D at that high frame rate...so who is going?

I will give this a miss, as I am not really a Hobbit fan, but as far as digital presentation is concerned the last one I watched at the cinema was "The Sound Of Music" and it looked really good. It did not come across as a "cold digital image" in fact the colours looked strong and warm.

Film or digital, it all comes down to how it is handled and presented. Last night I used a video projector for "Tap" before hitting the screen I cue it to the start of the movie on a small TV, nothing must show on screen until the lights dim, and then and only then the movie starts. With the masking already set it went fine and the image of the DVD was very good as with the sound, they rented it. [Smile]

Although in saying that, I spent a bit of time with those kids in the garage talking about film and each had to cut a 24frame strip of 35mm to take home [Cool] they also looked over the projectors, the Ernie and all, so the evening went down very well. [Smile]

Graham.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

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From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
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 - posted November 30, 2012 10:23 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've been thinking about how to present this for today, and some of this may sound redundant, so please bear with me.

I'm, at heart, a romanticist, so I like putting myself in enviorments.

When I screen on my projection TV a Laurel and hardy Laserdisc or DVD, I watch it and while it looks OK, I don't feel drawn in ...

Now, when I play the same film, except on actual film, lets say "Double Whoopee" is the choice, the actual celluloid takes me back and I'm suddenly in 1929 with that audience on the cusp of sound pictures, watching the lads do they're thing and laughing right along with them.

It's a connection with humanity, be it today or 80 years ago, with an element that is a shared history.

Perhaps that is what I'm trying to say ...

Now, on the other hand, after all of us "cine-dinosaurs" are long dead, and all that remains is digital, perhaps today and tomorrows crowd will have that same nolstalgia, but I kind of doubt it.

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Michael O'Regan
Film God

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From: Essex, UK
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 - posted December 01, 2012 02:58 AM      Profile for Michael O'Regan   Email Michael O'Regan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
It's a connection with humanity, be it today or 80 years ago, with an element that is a shared history.
Maybe it is, but the general public don't give a hoot about that, and they are the people who drive the movie industry.

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted December 01, 2012 12:16 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alas, sad but true, Micheal, and good to hear from ya!

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Thomas Murin, Jr.
Master Film Handler

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From: Lanoka Harbor, NJ, USA
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 - posted December 01, 2012 12:20 PM      Profile for Thomas Murin, Jr.   Author's Homepage   Email Thomas Murin, Jr.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Osi, I get what you're saying and I'm sure many here would agree with you.

However, I'm all about the movie. I don't care what medium the movie is being delivered on, I always get drawn in. Laserdisc, Betamax, DVD, Blu-Ray. TV, digital or film projection, it does not matter to me.

I've also never found theatrical digital projection to be "cold". The ones I've seen all looked like 35mm film. They sure didn't look anything like "video".

As for 48fps, it's really a moot point right now. Only a handful of theaters in the world are capable of showing it right now. It'll be years before there are enough theaters for it to make any kind of impact.

Untill then, just sit back, relax and enjoy the show!

--------------------
My crummy Deviant Art account. Read my poetic tribute to the internet comic strip Ozy & Millie and view my crappy attempts at art.

http://cougartiger.deviantart.com/

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Laksmi Breathwaite
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 - posted December 02, 2012 02:48 AM      Profile for Laksmi Breathwaite   Email Laksmi Breathwaite   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with OSI! Ray Harryhausen told me once when I was at his house in London I went for a visit. He said that digital effects or animation CGI was good but we both agree it looks to cold and with no soul and the magic was gone. It looks to real. It is really disappointing to hear that a animal or something is CGI and not real even when it looks real. It looks so real like to compare a painting to a photo. Everyone likes the Mona Lisa but what if you had this great photo of a woman would people care as much or give a hoot. Man's creative work like sculptures or oil paintings are like film and hands on stop motion animation. It is something to admirer mans handy work or God's if you care to believe in God. Some people say that God is dead and Tech is real we can see science. But were will it all end . I asked Peter Jackson once at a meeting at the Directors guild in Hollywood about doing movies about, life after death,why are we here,where are we going,philosophy, important questions? I gave him a script for the great Indian epic the Ramayana . A story of the prince half God Rama who had to fight a ten headed demon to save his princess with the help of a monkey army. Now that would have made a great movie fresh and new. And he said he had to do subjects that could get financing. I told him that George Lucas did Star Wars inspired by Joesph Cambell the historian who loved the Ramayana from India. And came up with the Force . Remember when Darth Vader in the movie said that these Technological advancements were no match for the power of the Force.I agree with Vader Long Live Film and may the Force be with you . And long live the Human spirit and the Arts.

--------------------
" Faster then a speeding bullet, more powerful then a Locomotive "."Look up in the sky it's a bird it's a plane it's SUPERMAN"

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted December 02, 2012 09:04 AM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You madesome great insightful points, Laksmi. Boy! Have you gotten around! ove to meet the "Hobbit dude"!

Hey, were actually back to the Hobbit!

I am so glad that someone like Peter Jackson, who has an absolute LOVE for the text, is the one helming and directing the projects. Could you imagine the Bruckheimers of Hollywood doing the Hobbit?

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Laksmi Breathwaite
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 - posted December 03, 2012 02:01 AM      Profile for Laksmi Breathwaite   Email Laksmi Breathwaite   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks Osi , Here is a pic of me and the Hobbit Dude hanging out. He He [Razz]  -

And may the Force be with this Guy  -

I really miss Moses who went up to the mountain, and the Avatar guy who has a spiritual mesasage to tell .  -

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" Faster then a speeding bullet, more powerful then a Locomotive "."Look up in the sky it's a bird it's a plane it's SUPERMAN"

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Osi Osgood
Film God

Posts: 10204
From: #399R K.O.A. Mountian Home, ID. 83647
Registered: Jul 2005


 - posted December 05, 2012 01:23 PM      Profile for Osi Osgood   Author's Homepage   Email Osi Osgood   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Man, I envy you, the Heston himself!

... and Jackson! I bet there were some probably thinking, "aww. he's just putting you on"

Nope, not a chance of that!

--------------------
"All these moments will be lost in time, just like ... tears, in the rain. "

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Patrick Walsh
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From: Christchurch, New Zealand
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 - posted December 06, 2012 06:04 PM      Profile for Patrick Walsh   Email Patrick Walsh   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
A quote from Sir Peter back in 09 on the making of THE HOBBIT
"Jackson mentioned that the "Hobbit" films will not be released in 3D. "Guillermo wants to shoot in 35mm, old-fashioned film, which suits me, because he wants to keep it in the same space as the original trilogy."

--------------------
"Raise The Titanic!", It would of been cheaper to lower the Atlantic!

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Thomas Murin, Jr.
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From: Lanoka Harbor, NJ, USA
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 - posted December 07, 2012 04:55 PM      Profile for Thomas Murin, Jr.   Author's Homepage   Email Thomas Murin, Jr.   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
A quote from Sir Peter back in 09 on the making of THE HOBBIT "Jackson mentioned that the "Hobbit" films will not be released in 3D. "Guillermo wants to shoot in 35mm, old-fashioned film, which suits me, because he wants to keep it in the same space as the original trilogy."
Patrick, that quote was from when Del Toro was going to direct. The quote makes it clear that DEL TORO wanted to shoot 2D and 35mm NOT Jackson. He was just going along with what Del Toro wanted.

When Peter Jackson was forced to direct after Del Toro dropped out, he clearly decided to go 3D and 48fps after meeting with James Cameron.

I see nothing wrong here.

--------------------
My crummy Deviant Art account. Read my poetic tribute to the internet comic strip Ozy & Millie and view my crappy attempts at art.

http://cougartiger.deviantart.com/

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Rob Young.
Phenomenal Film Handler

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From: Cheshire, U.K.
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 - posted December 07, 2012 07:33 PM      Profile for Rob Young.     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Just coming back to this as we teater upon the UK release; one thing we haven't discussed (EDIT: Sorry Graham, you have, in your wisdom, already mentioned this!) is the impact of 48 fps upon the 3D presentation...

Reviews from them wot have seen it please....

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Larry Arpin
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Posts: 953
From: Sunland, CA, USA
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 - posted December 14, 2012 06:37 PM      Profile for Larry Arpin   Author's Homepage   Email Larry Arpin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow! Even Leonard Maltin didn't like it:

http://blogs.indiewire.com/leonardmaltin/the-hobbit-an-unexpected-journey

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