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Author Topic: Grease Re-Recording..Success! Kind of...
Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted April 30, 2005 02:02 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have gone and used Pedro's sync box, set it for 25 fps, played Grease Region 2 PAL DVD on my Powerbook G4, and put each on the first frame. Taped the 2 Rec Selector switch on the GS1200's with scotch tape in the down position, put the machine in play/pause,then the DVD player in pause, then at the same time took off the pause button on each machine and voila! Perfect sync for the entire reel! 600fters! So it can be done here in the USA. Pretty much perfect synce the first try each and every reel. Now the kind of..
Some of the reels on the Grease do not have very good soundstripe.
Reel 1 and 2 are decent. 3,4, 5, 6, 7 are good for the most part but kind of fluttery in other spots.
I know it isn't the machine as I have some great recordings done with old K40 Sound film that I used to check the recording status. However, even with the semi-intermittant sound its still 100% better in quality!
And the picture quality side by side is SO much better on Super 8 than the picture from the DVD. The DVD is ok but the Super 8 looks like technicolor. It truly is a gorgeous print! Here is a picture of my professional set up. NO laughter please! [Smile]
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Mike Peckham
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1461
From: West Sussex, UK.
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted April 30, 2005 03:07 AM      Profile for Mike Peckham   Email Mike Peckham   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alan

Well done! Isn't it satisfying when it all comes together like that? Pedros box really is an excellant piece of kit. Funnily enough it was Grease that I used to check out the box and the theory of pulse syncing DVD to super 8.

You say yours is on 600ft reels? Mine is the Derann release on 400ft reels so maybe a different lab? I managed to edit mine on to 2 x 1200ft reels, each of which will now stay in sync with the DVD from start to finish. Trouble is that setting up the second reel to start in sync is a little more tricky than the first.

With the first I simply set the GS on ESS with the # 3 from the initial countdown showing on the screen and start the GS with the Pedro box at the same moment as I press play on the DVD and et voila!

Great fun isn't it [Big Grin]

Mike

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Auntie Em must have stopped wondering where I am by now...

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted April 30, 2005 08:05 AM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Congratulations Alan! I also re-recorded my scope print of Grease, a couple of years ago, doing it the hard way- using manually adjusted speed control on my Eumig 938 stereo. It took me 8 hours to do the whole feature, but it was well worth the effort as I now have stunning stereo sound throughout the length of the movie, as opposed to the rather muddy mono track as supplied by Derann. Yes, the print quality of the Derann scope print is truly outstanding, and I agree with you that it is much better than the DVD. [Smile]
The addition of the stereo track makes this a real knockout super 8 movie. Stereo sound adds so much to the impact of super 8. Lets hope "Master and Commander" is as good a print as Grease!

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The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Kevin Faulkner
Film God

Posts: 4071
From: Essex UK
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted April 30, 2005 08:49 AM      Profile for Kevin Faulkner         Edit/Delete Post 
Nice one Alan. Its great when it all works out Ok. I'm talks with pedro at the moment about this problem of NTSC sync and he may now have an answer but it will mean new circuitry and a higher price for the box. I'll keep every one informed as we go along.

Kev.

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GS1200 Xenon with Elmo 1.0...great combo along with a 16-CL Xenon for that super bright white light.

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
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- posted April 30, 2005 10:08 AM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
NTSC box? That would be great! Please keep me informed! The only real problem is that now I need to find Region 2 UK disks for my re-recordings. Sigh.
But it really is a stunning improvement over the regular recorded sound.

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Douglas Meltzer
Moderator

Posts: 4554
From: New York, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted April 30, 2005 11:43 AM      Profile for Douglas Meltzer   Email Douglas Meltzer   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Nice job, Alan! Pedro, put me down for one when you start selling your NTSC model.

Doug

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I think there's room for just one more film.....

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

- posted April 30, 2005 12:13 PM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Meanwhile, I'm going about it the low-tech way - just had the brilliant(?) idea of somehow attaching the frame counter that goes with my Elmo 912 editor to the ST1200HD projector... and using it for frame-exact recording starts and stops. [Big Grin] (Heck, I can't even record in stereo! I have a ways to go, yet!)

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Paul Adsett
Film God

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From: USA
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- posted April 30, 2005 06:24 PM      Profile for Paul Adsett     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I would also be most interested in procuring an NTSC version of Pedro's GS1200 SYNC BOX.

--------------------
The best of all worlds- 8mm, super 8mm, 9.5mm, and HD Digital Projection,
Elmo GS1200 f1.0 2-blade
Eumig S938 Stereo f1.0 Ektar
Panasonic PT-AE4000U digital pj

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Dan Lail
Film God

Posts: 2110
From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted April 30, 2005 07:54 PM      Profile for Dan Lail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If the speed variation of a GS-1200 is 2fps + or -(the center being 25fps), then how could it be locked into an NTSC speed of 29.970 fps? You can slow the GS down to 23fps or speed it up to 27fps. I guess you could tweek the circuit board pot to go faster(if the specs allow 29.970fps), but I wouldn't want to go that route. That potentiometer is very fragile. [Smile]

Kev, help me out on this. [Confused]

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John Whittle
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 791
From: Northridge, CA USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted April 30, 2005 09:50 PM      Profile for John Whittle   Email John Whittle       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
If the speed variation of a GS-1200 is 2fps + or -(the center being 25fps), then how could it be locked into an NTSC speed of 29.970 fps?
While ntsc picture is 29.97, the film speed is 23.97 and then a 3-2 repeat is used to build up the field rate to the faster video scan rate. So the trick is to derive the 23.97 from the 29.97 with a 5/4 divide circuit which is exactly the way we did synch motors at 1800 to 1440 shutter shafts. When we dub film the picture and tracks lock at 23.97 but the video projector on the dubbing stage is displaying 29.97.

Complicated but the computers keep track of it all.

John

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

- posted April 30, 2005 10:27 PM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
John is right on the money. [Smile] Now I know, too, where the GS1200 speed quote on the other forum thread came from, the one about the international PAL/NTSC DVD player (the quote follows a post made by me, so it looks confusing) [Razz]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Dan Lail
Film God

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From: Loganville, Georgia, USA
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- posted April 30, 2005 11:15 PM      Profile for Dan Lail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Wow, and just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water! [Eek!] Jan, you and John have enlightened me on fps pertaining to video and film. Then theoretically I could use Pedro's crystal sync with NTSC. Right? [Confused]

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
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- posted May 01, 2005 12:16 AM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You could, if you do it with that PAL/NTSC DVD player you mentioned over on that other thread of yours (putting out a PAL signal from an NTSC disc). [Smile]

Otherwise - from what I've gathered - no. (If I just said something terribly wrong, guys, feel free to clobber me.) [Big Grin]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Ricky Daniels
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 587
From: London & Kent UK
Registered: Jul 2003

- posted May 01, 2005 07:26 AM      Profile for Ricky Daniels     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Guys,

It's quite simple really!!

Just FORGET the 'NTSC' video frame rate and refer to the 'NTSC' FILM TRANSFER FRAME RATE which = 23.976 frames per second.

The Pedro 25/24/18etc frames per second sync pulse unit works with 'PAL' film transfers because the 'PAL' film transfer frame rate is EXACTLY 25 frames per second. However it doesn't work with 'NTSC' because the 'NTSC' film frame transfer rate is NOT exactly 24 frames per second, as has been outlined before.

I understand from Kevin that Pedro is to (hopefully) produce a sync unit that will supply frame pulses to the GS1200 at a rate of 23.976 pulses per second, in theory locking the GS to the 'NTSC' film transfer frame rate. This is great news for me as I'd like to pulse sync JURASSIC PARK to the 525 ('NTSC') DVD, which unlike the 625 ('PAL') DVD has DTS audio!!!

Hope this helps you to understand this 'black' art!

Rick.

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

- posted May 01, 2005 11:17 AM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Well said, Rick, spot on [Smile]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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Alan Gouger
Master Film Handler

Posts: 451
From: Florida
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted May 01, 2005 11:21 AM      Profile for Alan Gouger     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
You can count me in as a buyer of an NTSC version of Pedro's GS1200 SYNC BOX.
Darn, now I have to hunt for another GS1200:)

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted May 01, 2005 04:05 PM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
oh...Mike...my mistake, they are on 400ft reels!
Yes, the difference in sound is like going from a muddy, hissy 8 track to full on CD quality sound. Its hard to imagine the sound possible from the little mag tracks.
I owe Mr. Wilton for inspiring me to attempt the sound transfer.
When I was in England attending the BFCC (what a great time! Great memories..I would love to go again but I have to save..the dollar is worth .50 pence!) we swung around to Mr. Wilton's for a very gracious dinner and stories abound. And also for a look at his home cinema. Both of them! And when he played Fantasia I thought he had it hooked up to his DVD. No..the incredible sound was coming from the mag tracks. Awesome. I think im hooked..again!

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted May 03, 2005 02:33 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
That's pretty much what happened to me about 15 years ago Alan. That Wilton's got a lot to answer for.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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Ricky Daniels
Jedi Master Film Handler

Posts: 587
From: London & Kent UK
Registered: Jul 2003

- posted May 03, 2005 07:28 AM      Profile for Ricky Daniels     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
...he most certainly has John!

For me it was a demo of Star Wars at the Wilton Ranch (get it Skywalker Ranch, LOL) locked to a HiFi Vhs. I'd become an established telecine colourist and I found myself getting back into this bootlace stuff again which started it all for me years back (and it was costing a small fortune too!!).

Rick

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted May 03, 2005 12:44 PM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alan

Let me know what R2 DVD's you need and I will lend them to you, no problem. I always keep a backup copy in case I damage one [Wink]

I have just bought a G4 and never thought about using it to transfer sound-thanks

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Tony

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Michael Clark
Film Handler

Posts: 95
From: Alexandria, VA U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2005

- posted May 03, 2005 01:53 PM      Profile for Michael Clark   Email Michael Clark   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Could you do this using the Sankyo Stereo 800 and the speed adjuster inside the back cover?

Mike.

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Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted May 03, 2005 02:52 PM      Profile for Alan Rik   Email Alan Rik   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Tony,
That would be great! I am looking for Beauty and the Beast and also the Snowman (you know.. the figures that are hanging around at Clancy's place!). I just purchased Bugsy Malone (with Scott Baio, Jodie Foster). Oh also Flash Gordon! [Smile]
Got any of these?

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Tony Milman
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1336
From: United Kingdom
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted May 03, 2005 05:17 PM      Profile for Tony Milman   Author's Homepage   Email Tony Milman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Alan

Let's take this off-line....email me your wish list [Wink]

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Tony

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Jan Bister
Darth 8mm

Posts: 2629
From: Ohio, USA
Registered: Jan 2005

- posted May 03, 2005 09:32 PM      Profile for Jan Bister   Email Jan Bister   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Couldn't you just buy your region-2 DVDs online from amazon.co.uk (instead of amazon.com)? I'm sure they'll have no problem with international shipping [Wink]

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Call me Phoenix. *dusts off the ashes*

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John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

- posted May 04, 2005 02:05 AM      Profile for John Clancy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Michael, yes you could use the speed adjuster on the Sankyo. It all depends on how accurate a speed the machine keeps but once set it's possible to run the film in sync' with the video. There will always be some drift but once it goes visibly out of sync' it's time to stop, rewind a bit and commence re-recording in sync'. Takes longer to do a film this way and will obviously wear out the projector eventually.

For region 2 DVD's try www.play.com - cheap, cheap, cheap.

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British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

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