8mm Forum: Bambi (Derann)

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Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on February 22, 2010, 01:20 AM:

Hello,

I am new here. I am a modest collector of some super8 films, mainly Disney ones (long features and shorts).

I post here today, because I have a problem with a very recent purchase from Derann. I have bought to them a brand new Bambi copy (3x600ft). I have projected it this weekend to check it, using a Chinon SS1200.

The good things, imo, of that copy is that it is a little "wide", I mean they have added little black bars in the top and bottom, so I guess, respecting the aspect ratio of the movie at the time, which was a little wider than what allows the super8 frame. The sharpness is good, just as Snow White or Pinocchio of Derann.

The problem is the color. I have added here some photos taken with color-calibrated equipment, and if you see them in a color calibrated monitor (the photos are already converted to the color profile of internet browsers and windows, so no problem for that), you will see the colors very close/almost equal to the projected ones (maybe the photos are slightly more saturated and slightly more toward pink than the projection, but very slightly)

I have taken about 50 shots from the first reel that you can find in a zip I have uploaded to my personal rapidshare space, and I wanted to post here the link, but sincerely, after reading the film-tech image upload policies I am scared to do it. Could someone tell me if I can put the link here?

So, what I need (quite urgently, tbh...) is that someone who has Bambi from Derann could confirm which colors has his/her copy, (even better if some photos could be posted!). This was sold as full-price brand new, and regarding shape it seems new, but not regarding quality of image, imo.

I have searched these forums and I have only found some "old" reference to Bambi (Derann) as literally "amazing!", but nothing more.

Please, if someone could help me I would be very grateful, as you may understand I am in a rush to solve this before too much time pass.

Thank you very much.

Note: I wanted to upload 6 or so photos, but the policies in the upload page says "As of 9-22-03, posting more than 2 theater images (not for technical assistance) within the
forum on a particular thread will constitute your temporary leave of absense from the forums.". Frankly, as it is written, that has scared me, so I have only posted 2 of them, which is a pity. I would say my case is "technical assistance", but who knows.

[ February 22, 2010, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: Miguel Gimenez ]

Posted by Graham Ritchie (Member # 559) on February 22, 2010, 03:16 AM:

Hi Miguel
I dont own a print of "Bambi" myself but have bought many other Disney features and shorts from them during the 90s and the colours are excellent. "Bambi" was released in Super8 in 1994 and looking at those two photo's above I would say you have a serious colour problem with that print [Eek!]

I would suggest you contact "Derann" about it ASAP.

Graham.

Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on February 22, 2010, 03:28 AM:

Thanks a lot for your prompt answer!

Yes I know that these are only 2 pictures and may be not enough, but... anyway, I'll just risk myself and post a few more to be sure. After all, it is all about a kind of "technical assistance" and I have seen people here post usually more than 2... My sincere apologies if I am wrong.

In fact my other Derann Disney films, bought in the nineties, are stunning about colors, in fact it is one of the things that I love most of super8/Derann/Disney films, so you can imagine the surprise when I saw that.

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 270) on February 22, 2010, 04:03 AM:

Miguel : I have seen a print of Bambi a few months ago and it looked real good. There is probably a lab issue with yours. Call Gary, I am sure he will do his best to help.

Bambi, as well as many other early Disney films was in Academic format (1:1.37) but later rereleased prints were most of the time hard-matted to be shown either in 1.66 or 1.85 ratio. The Derann version could come from one of these reissued prints.

Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on February 22, 2010, 04:03 AM:

Hello Miguel, how are you?
Welcome on the Forum.

You can see below how color of the print shoud be. Consider I took these shots using my mobile, since the last time I screened my copy I did not have any digital camera at home.
BTW, it's only to give you an idea.

Jean-Marc already wrote about the aspect ratio.
Compared to other Disneys issued by Derann, BAMBI has not excellent color. But it's for sure due to the negative (NOT EXCELLENT means a little 'light').
Earlier prints on Agfa were anyway better than the ones printed on LPP.

Some of most recent prints issued by Derann have a very light pinkish cast to the color. But the copy you had has absolutely something wrong. As Graham and Jean-Marc suggested, contact Gary/Derann as soon as possible to ask them what's wrong with your copy.
All the best and let us know.
Ciao.

Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on February 22, 2010, 04:59 AM:

Thank you very much for all your answers, they help a lot.
I have just contacted Gary. Waiting for his answer.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 22, 2010, 06:24 AM:

Hi Minuel,

The color does look terrible, especially if we see Gian's screen shots.

Remember, although you say that everything is calibrated but our monitor is not

So, for a fair comparison, could yo also post another screen shot from another film you have (that you think is the best color you have).

cheers,

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on February 22, 2010, 07:02 AM:

Miguel,
What stock is that?

Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on February 22, 2010, 07:09 AM:

Stock? Sorry but, what does "stock" mean?

Winbert: I'll try and see what I can do.

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on February 22, 2010, 07:57 AM:

quote:
Stock? Sorry but, what does "stock" mean?

Stock = Filmstock = "la pellicule" ou "la sorte du film".
E.g. your photos show that it isn't a black&white-filmstock [Wink]

Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on February 22, 2010, 08:07 AM:

Thanks. Then the question is how can I identify the stock? there is some id in the first reel, or something like that? I mean, what I should look for? Sorry for being so "inexpert".

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on February 22, 2010, 09:32 AM:

Miguel,

What is written along the side of the film - near the perforations?

Posted by Joerg Polzfusz (Member # 602) on February 22, 2010, 09:42 AM:

Guide to Identifying Color Movie Film Stocks
http://www.paulivester.com/films/filmstock/guide.htm

It's for 16mm-filmstocks, but the super8-stocks do have the same or at least similar markings. However the most important markings will most likely be hidden below the soundtrack's mag-stripes [Frown]

Jörg

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on February 22, 2010, 09:57 AM:

I don't suppose the stock is crucially important as, if the print was released in 1994, it should be low fade - nevertheless I am interested to know.

Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on February 22, 2010, 11:26 AM:

All newest releases issued by Derann are on LPP. But the stock is not marked at all. So you won't find any 'ID' on it, Miguel.

I'm afraid, as most of recent prints issued by Derann tend to be a little pink here and there, the used stock could have been expired...

But as Michael has stated in his post, it makes no difference at all.

[ February 23, 2010, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Gian Luca Mario Loncrini ]

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on February 22, 2010, 12:46 PM:

That print is terrible. Surely, they'll take it back. I'll be interested to hear what their explanation is.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 22, 2010, 12:53 PM:

Now, Miguel,

The only thing for us to see how bad is your print, send us a nother screen shots from another print.

I ask you to do this, because if you see Jeroen's post here (click the link), you will also see the same color cast on his print of Cinderella. But he says that the color is OK.

cheers,

Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on February 22, 2010, 01:41 PM:

I have check for an ID until movie title and more, I have not seen any writen letters along with the perforations or in other place, and only some words in the frames telling that it is Bambi, Reel 1 and so on. Also seen the "Sync" word and nothing more.
Well, there is a frame with the three basic colors (red-green-blue, in stripes), but it doesn't seem any code.

Gary has answered me, and tells that it is the first Derann Disney film with pink cast he knows about and ask me to send back the film to him "for inspection".

I'll send back it to him ASAP.

I have noticed a "strange" thing. Comparing to Snow White and Pinocchio which were bought around 1994-1996, I don't remember correctly, they have the sound stripes in a brown color and the stripe has bump/volume. The Bambi film, has the stripes in black and no perceptible volume at all.

Additionally, the color of the film itslef (just at the beginning of the film, so without any image), in the SW and Pinocchio has a yellowish tone, meanwhile the stock of Bambi, is more gray/little bluish tone. So they seem for my inexperience, different stock. This is surprising considering that Derann released Bambi in the same years. Of course that could be normal if it is a more recent re-release (as Gian mentioned), I don't know. I have done a photo of the two films stripes to compare, that I'll post.

Winbert, I can assure you that in my case the colors are really pink [Wink]

, but I'll try to do something about the photo.

Posted by Winbert Hutahaean (Member # 58) on February 22, 2010, 02:42 PM:

quote:
Well, there is a frame with the three basic colors (red-green-blue, in stripes), but it doesn't seem any code.

Did you see also pink cast for these 3 color?

quote:
The Bambi film, has the stripes in black and no perceptible volume at all.

Miguel, if you meant by this that the black stripe does not have a good quality sound, that is true. There are several old threads discussing this matter.

cheers,

Posted by Flavio Stabile (Member # 357) on February 22, 2010, 03:34 PM:

Miguel,

here are samples from my copy, if it can help you in some way...

Ciao
Flavio

First Reel

Second Reel

Third Reel

Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on February 22, 2010, 03:44 PM:

Thanks, they do help. Are they scanned with a flatbed scanner? Really these are the colours I should see. I see that it has also the "brown" sound stripes. Is this a copy of 1994?

BTW, yes, the sound in these black stripes is not so good as with the "brown" sound ones used in , for example, Pinocchio.

I have captured also the first frames of each reel, the same frames you show, and in my copy they are totally pink, all three...

Tomorrow morning I'll try to send back my copy to Gary.

Winbert: the color stripes are only in 1 frame, and with the naked eye they seem normal, not pink at all.

About the volume of the sound stripes, I meant that the brown ones seems to be "painted" on the film, so you can see that it has some "relief","bump" or "volume" over the film, meanwhile the black ones seems flat. I realize that I have not choosen the correct word ("volume") to express that.
And at side of this, yes, the black ones (Bambi) does not sound as good as the others...

Posted by Flavio Stabile (Member # 357) on February 22, 2010, 04:01 PM:

HI Miguel,

I'm not sure about the date of my print... I bought it as a second hand copy.

Yes, the stripe is brown and not grey (or black) and I confirm the sound is excellent.

Yes these images are obtainted with my Canon flatbed scanner with 35mm slide for negative acquisition.

I'm sure Gary will help you with your copy!

Bye
Flavio

Posted by Larry Arpin (Member # 744) on February 23, 2010, 01:44 AM:

I have a Tom & Jerry that's similar to this. When I first got it I never thought too much about. It is very blue saturated almost to the pink. This might have been the lab that went out of business.

Posted by Jose Artiles (Member # 471) on February 23, 2010, 09:33 AM:

My print of grease have the same odd pinkish look just for the parsmount logo and the first 4 seconds..then suddenly the colour return to stunning as all derann prints have,i have two shorts in the same way all ordered a few weeks before the lab close the doors...maybe is a old stock they used or a bad etaloning but is curious that the last print i ordered before lab closed all have the same pinkish fails for seconds or for minutes.I think that the etaloning machine was desaligned or with the wrong ligth codes perhaps.

Posted by Douglas Meltzer (Member # 28) on February 23, 2010, 10:00 PM:

Miguel,

Welcome to the Forum! As already stated, I'm sure Gary at Derann will make things right.

Just to clear up your picture uploading question, there is a limit of 8 pictures per post. After someone replies to your post, you can upload another 8! The Theater image limit actually applies to the "Projection Picture Warehouse", another Film-Tech site.

Doug

Posted by Larry Arpin (Member # 744) on February 26, 2010, 12:43 AM:

Here is my SATURDAY EVENING PUSS print pic.

Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on February 26, 2010, 03:45 AM:

Oh my...
Same stock, no doubt [Roll Eyes]

.
Did you ask Derann the reason for this, Larry?

Posted by Larry Arpin (Member # 744) on February 26, 2010, 10:20 AM:

At the time, which was about 8 years ago, it never bothered me, so I never complained.

Posted by Steven Sigel (Member # 21) on February 26, 2010, 10:30 PM:

Looks to me like either a) an old copy (not on LPP or AGFA stock) that has faded, or b) a lab defect. Either way, it's awful and I'm sure they will replace it and give you a new print...

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on February 27, 2010, 02:33 AM:

....and cover your postage costs for the return.

Posted by Michael O'Regan (Member # 938) on March 23, 2010, 05:47 AM:

Miguel,

What was the outcome with this print and Derann?

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on March 23, 2010, 05:42 PM:

"I'm sure they will replace it and give you a new print..."

In view of the current lab situation, any replacements at the moment will depend on there being another print in stock, as Derann wouldn't tend to have much in the way of stocks of features.

Posted by Miguel Gimenez (Member # 1952) on March 31, 2010, 02:30 AM:

Sorry for the long silence. I have been very busy lately.

Well, when Gary received and saw it he answered that they "acknowledge that the copy is not perfect" (a very diplomatic answer, if you ask me).

Anyway as it was the last copy he offered a full refund or to buy it for 150 pounds. As the price seemed a bit high and anyway I was not going to be happy with the pink copy, I choose the full refund.

In the next month listing I saw it listed as A quality, slight (!) pink cast, for 99 pounds. Now it disappeared. I hope the buyer is not angry because of the description...

Anyway, for me it is solved and Gary was so kind to refund me also the shipping, although I did not recover it because of the (high!) fees of the bank who did the exchange of divise...

So it seems the end of the story for Bambi, until I find a good second hand copy. Thank you a lot for all your help.

EDIT: I forgot it, I asked Gary why he thought it was so pink, and he answered me just that "The answer is I do not know, although this was one of the very last Disney films to be printed"
(I hope Gary will not get angry because publishing his answer here...)

Now I have a very annoying problem with another purchase, but I am going to open a new topic to keep things separate.

Posted by Gian Luca Mario Loncrini (Member # 1417) on March 31, 2010, 03:09 AM:

Thanks for telling us, Miguel.
And good luck (hope you will find soon a used copy).
Ciao.

Posted by Adrian Winchester (Member # 248) on March 31, 2010, 08:16 AM:

"Now I have a very annoying problem with another purchase..."

Much as I enjoy viewing and collecting 8mm, I can't think of any other hobby that has caused me so many annoying experiences! I guess it's something we learn to live with, but I sometimes envy guys who always seem happy with everything they buy and don't even appear to notice major flaws!

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