8mm Forum: TENSION TROUBLE - CHINON 1200

8mm Forum

my profile | my password | search | faq | register | forum home

next oldest topic

next newest topic

»	8mm Forum » 8mm Forum » TENSION TROUBLE - CHINON 1200

UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!

Author

Topic: TENSION TROUBLE - CHINON 1200

Chris Fries
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Ohio, US
Registered: Aug 2011

posted January 23, 2012 12:15 AM

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

A few days ago I was working on a re-record. I finished and rewound the film. Before it was done rewinding, it stopped. I helped it along to the end. The film on the reel was spooled very tight. Also, as I was re-recording my film, I went to reverse it and the film got jumpy. I checked to see if it would do this with other films. Some jumped and some, like a borrowed copy of the exact same film, did not.

You can see the problem here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FjrCfb3YKA&feature=youtu.be

I assume there is something wrong with the tension in my takeup. I am not sure how to fix it. I have not had this machine for long. This is the first time I have had a problem with it.

As for the jumpy reverse, I don't think it is related to the tension problem. I stopped the takeup a bit so just the gears inside would run the film backwards. It was still jumpy.

What is wrong? Can anyone help me? What should I do?

[ January 23, 2012, 04:18 AM: Message edited by: Chris Fries ]

--------------------
There's a great big beautiful tomorrow just a dream away.

| IP: Logged

Janice Glesser
Film Goddess

Posts: 3468
From: Sunnyvale, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2011

posted January 23, 2012 01:37 AM

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

If that model has sprockets you may have to push the looper button on the top to relieve the tension. If it's sprocketless then perhaps it's the film itself...you did say other films ran ok.

--------------------
Janice

"I'm having a very good day!"
Richard Dreyfuss - Let It Ride (1989).

| IP: Logged

John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 23, 2012 03:02 AM

Author's Homepage

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

These machines are prone to cam wear which causes image instability so that could be the cause of the reverse image problem. The rewind fault is a common problem on the Chinon SS1200 and although I've never bothered to have it sorted I'm told it is down to a slipping clutch. I find 1200ft reels of film get further before coming to a halt.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

| IP: Logged

Chris Fries
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Ohio, US
Registered: Aug 2011

posted January 23, 2012 04:17 AM

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

John,

How long have you had this problem with your SS1200? Is it something that is easily fixed? Also, because of the tension on the rewind, film gets wound really tight on the reel. Is that bad for the film? I did rewind some borrowed films on my 6100 just to be safe.

I am also concerned about breakage. Have any of your films broke due to the tension?

Also, I am not sure but I think it is affecting my playback speed. I am now in the middle of a few re-records. Syncing sound to film can be hard enough without the the projector slowing down.

Here is why I think there is a speed problem.

I have a copy of "Cat Ballou" (as seen in the video above) that has bad sound. Pat sent me his copy so I could record the soundtrack and put it on my copy. I set the speed exactly in the middle. I recorded Pat's film directly onto my computer. I extracted the sound and burned it onto a CD. I threaded my copy, ran lines into "DUBBING IN", pressed both "RECORD" buttons and hit "Play" on the CD player. After a few starts and stops, I got a pretty good sync. Then somewhere toward the middle of the film, the sound started to shift. Now, apart from fading, both films should be exactly alike. Neither film has any splices. Why did it go out of sync?

Then again, I am still new to this re-recording thing. Maybe it's just me. I want these to be perfect. And that will take time.

--------------------
There's a great big beautiful tomorrow just a dream away.

| IP: Logged

John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 24, 2012 03:49 AM

Author's Homepage

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

I used my SS1200 up until about 8 years ago primarily for re-recording work. It was worked almost to death and needs a bit of a rebuild to get it back to health. The sync' had started to drift in the end which is the sign of a knackered SS1200. The image had become a bit unstable but not on every print. Reverse was worse than forwards. I rarely use the SS1200 now but when I do run it it's fine but I wouldn't use it to show off the best of Super 8 any longer.

It seems to me you may have purchased a knackered one though it is hard to believe anyone could have put one of these machines through as much work as I did.

On a positive note, I never found the film could rewind so tight it would break. In fact, I think it is better if a film is tight on the reel as it is harder for exterior conditions such as heat, cold and damp to adversely affect it.

If you were in the UK I'd suggest getting the machine to John White or Bill Parsons to look at it. Perhaps someone in the US can recommend someone.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

| IP: Logged

Chris Fries
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Ohio, US
Registered: Aug 2011

posted January 24, 2012 10:38 AM

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

Thanks for the info, John. I really hope there is someone on this side of the pond I can send this machine to because I really don't have a clue as to how to fix it. I've had this only a few months. It was working wonderfully then this. I hope I didn't buy a $200 lemon. Is there nothing I can do for it? I can't afford another projector right now. I suppose my Chinon 6100 could become my primary machine again but that has problems, too. It has major chatter and can get really jumpy. I would go back to my Sears II if I knew it wasn't going to bunch up and eat my films. I suppose if I cannot find anyone who can help me I will have to learn how to fix these projectors or save up for another. If it is the later, any recommendations? Is there any machine out there that is reliable? I truly know things can go wrong very quickly with equipment this delicate. Is there a good solid working machine out there? One that that does not require some sort of constant servicing? I know. It would be so much easier if this was 35 years ago.

--------------------
There's a great big beautiful tomorrow just a dream away.

| IP: Logged

Michael O'Regan
Film God

Posts: 3085
From: Essex, UK
Registered: Oct 2007

posted January 24, 2012 10:59 AM

Email Michael O'Regan

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

Chris,
Have you tried Rich Patchett. He's a forum member. The only thing is I'm not certain whether or not he works exclusively on 16mm machines. You could check.

| IP: Logged

Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 24, 2012 11:27 AM

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

Chris, if the problem on SS1200 is only during rewinding film, why don't you set SS1200 for playing only and Sears acts for a rewinder?

I did this since several months ago to save belts and gears on my main projectors. I choose a cheap projector like Minolta 7100 to do the job.

The only thing you need to modify is a gear on the take up arm. Minolta has one gear that connected with the main belt during play position. This would not be used during rewinding but instead make rewinding heavier. At Elmo ST-1200 and GS-1200 there is a (orange) knob to release this gear, so rewind will be faster (lighter)

So what I did to Minolta is totally disengaged this gear and make rewind is lighter (but of course projector cannot longer do forward/play).

My 2 cents.

--------------------
Winbert

| IP: Logged

Chris Fries
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Ohio, US
Registered: Aug 2011

posted January 24, 2012 12:12 PM

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

Thanks for the suggestion, Winbert. Since the problem with the 1200 started, I have been occasionally using my 6100 for rewinds but I think I will switch to the Sears. The only problem with using these other machines is that they cannot hold a reel larger than 600'. I will still have to use the 1200 for anything larger. Not too much of a worry, though. The only film I have right now on a 1200' reel is the 3x400 "Westworld". I was going to get some empty 1200's for my two other 3x400's, "The Towering Inferno" and "Clash of the Titans". I think I'll wait on that for now.

--------------------
There's a great big beautiful tomorrow just a dream away.

| IP: Logged

John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 25, 2012 03:32 AM

Author's Homepage

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

$200 for an SS1200 is a good price even if it needs some fettling. They sold for £800 new in the early 90s so it will be worth investing a couple of hundred dollars in having it restored. It would probably then work for years.

Beware though, these machines use a lot of plastic guides that do wear so it is important to keep the machine lubed up with something waxy. Perhaps Armorall will do the trick. I used to apply a liberal dose of Thermofilm but in the end that didn't contain as much wax.

I think Leon Norris is the name that comes up for cine projector repairs in the USA. Get in touch with him once someone on here provides contact details.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

| IP: Logged

Chris Fries
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Ohio, US
Registered: Aug 2011

posted January 28, 2012 04:20 AM

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

Thank you, John.

I would appreciate it if someone has contact information for Leon Norris or anyone in the States who can fix projectors because it finally happened. The takeup has stopped working completely. It froze up tonight while I was watching a film. I did not not know till it was over. I went to rewind and there was a pile of film on the floor. The good news is it happened toward the end of the viewing so there was only about 15 feet of loose film. The bad news is I haven't a clue how to fix this machine.

Help!

--------------------
There's a great big beautiful tomorrow just a dream away.

| IP: Logged

Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 28, 2012 06:13 AM

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

Hi Chris,

If the take up stop during play (forward) why don't you change the belt? Some projectors, at least my GS1200, use belt to move the take up reel. The belt is inside the arm. Take a look!

While we are here, you missed my question on your "Gentleman Prefer Blonde". Because the color is so good, what is the film stock used?

Cheers

--------------------
Winbert

| IP: Logged

Chris Fries
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Ohio, US
Registered: Aug 2011

posted January 28, 2012 01:52 PM

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

Thanks Win,

Very busy today but as soon as I can I will take a look at the belt. I would still like to know if there is anyone in the U.S. who can help me.

As for the film, it has "Ken Gentleman Prefer Blondes Technicolor" on the leader and a mark I cannot read. It looks like 1S so, agfa maybe?

--------------------
There's a great big beautiful tomorrow just a dream away.

| IP: Logged

John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 29, 2012 03:41 AM

Author's Homepage

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

I think there is a simple tension adjuster for the belt. Not sure if that will solve the problem though.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

| IP: Logged

Chris Fries
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Ohio, US
Registered: Aug 2011

posted January 30, 2012 05:48 PM

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

Thanks John.

Well, not sure what I did but it seems to be working now. I opened it up, checked the belt, checked the gears in the arm, plugged it in and it started turning again. ??? If it tightens up or stops again, I will let you know.

If it does, where exactly is the tension adjuster? I must have missed it.

--------------------
There's a great big beautiful tomorrow just a dream away.

| IP: Logged

Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 30, 2012 07:39 PM

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

Chris, as far as I am concerned the symthom you describe is exacty when the belt starts to give up.

You give some tension on the belt and it will move normally until certain time and it will stop again.

You can still give tension for a couple times until finally it will not move at all (it means the belt has totally loose its strength).

Why not you change the belt from now rather than to open and close the cover many times.

--------------------
Winbert

| IP: Logged

Chris Fries
Master Film Handler

Posts: 399
From: Ohio, US
Registered: Aug 2011

posted January 30, 2012 10:08 PM

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

You are right. I will change the belt. Where is the best place to get one? I did a search on eBay and the only replacement belts used in a 1200 projector are for the ELMO ST-1200. Will this work for my Chinon?

--------------------
There's a great big beautiful tomorrow just a dream away.

| IP: Logged

Winbert Hutahaean
Film God

Posts: 5468
From: Nouméa, New Caledonia
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 30, 2012 10:47 PM

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

Sorry I don't know Chris. I think each projector has diferent belt size.

Just few days ago, another member posted a company in UK that can supply belt at any size and diameter. Please have a look.

Otherwise on Ebay there are 2 sellers knows of selling belts. I bought once for my Elmo from "needitgone". But the other one I cannot really remember now, something like "isellprojectorbelt".

cheers,

--------------------
Winbert

| IP: Logged

John Clancy
Phenomenal Film Handler

Posts: 1954
From: Cornwall
Registered: Jun 2003

posted January 31, 2012 03:17 AM

Author's Homepage

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

The belt in question is [I think] the long, toothed item at the top of the machine. I seem to remember a little adjuster at one end which will take up some slack.

--------------------
British Film Collectors Convention home page www.bfcc.biz. The site is for the whole of the film collecting hobby and not just the BFCC.

| IP: Logged

Alan Rik
Film God

Posts: 2211
From: New York City, NY, USA
Registered: Jun 2003

posted February 21, 2017 08:17 PM

Email Alan Rik

Send New Private Message

Edit/Delete Post

[ February 22, 2017, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Alan Rik ]

| IP: Logged

All times are Central

Move Topic

Delete Topic

next oldest topic

next newest topic

Printer-friendly view of this topic

Visit www.film-tech.com for free equipment manual downloads. Copyright 2003-2019 Film-Tech Cinema Systems LLC

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.1.2